Health care: The blame game

(Getty Images) We're about halfway into the "town hall" presidential debate. For nearly an hour, angry and frightened Tennesseans have pelted the senators with grief over the economy. McCain offers a surprise: He'd renegotiate troubled home mortgages to give squeezed homeowners some relief.  Now we're on health care, and McCain, who prefers this town-hall format, steps into a land mine.

McCain's health-reform plan gives a $5,000 tax credit to households for health insurance costs. (Set aside  the fact that $5K in premiums, where I live, will maybe cover a 24-year-old childless decathlete with the blood work of a vestal virgin and the EKG of an ox.) It taxes employer-paid premiums as personal income. It adjusts for states' varying economic (and regulatory) climates by letting people buy policies across state lines.    

Ahhh. There's a reason all the banks and credit card companies go to Delaware, Obama riposted. The laws there aren't very strict on banking.

"But that's Sen. McCain. He wants to deregulate everything."       

Comments

[John]

I think the question from Brokaw.. "Is access to health care a right, a privilege or a responsibility"... something like that…was right on target. Obama's answer: "a right" McCain's answer: "a responsibility". What a lame response. Although the US claim to have the best medicine in the world, our health statistics are atrocious as compared to other countries that do more with less money, and provide access to health care for all. I believe part of my wellbeing is to know that 45 million people without health insurance in this country will be covered. One of the saddest things is that many of these people are recently unemployed persons who have to make tough choices between food on their tables and buying health care insurance. Sure, many are going to allege that providing health care for all is not the government's job… go ask The World Health Organization, the Europeans, and other countries where access to health care is considered a right…

[queerplanet]

Anyone who believes a word coming out of McCain's mouth needs to take a good look at this record.

Go onto Youtube and type in McCain Vs. McCain. One day he says this, the next he says the opposite.

He voted with Bush ninety percent of the time. He voted against health care and voted to spend that money filling up Blackwater and Halliburton's bank accounts in Iraq.

Any gay man who votes for this fascist needs to take a good look at the destruction of civil rights, such as Habeus Corpus, under the Republicans.

And while you're at it, take a good look at what Bush is up to right now.

He is, as of this week, putting US troops on active duty WITHIN THE UNITED STATES to control CIVIL UNREST. This is in direct violation of the Posse Commitas Act which prohibits using US troops against US citizens.

but hey,,,,, what's a few more constitutional rights when you're a Republican?

So yeah, vote Republican. Then say goodbye to Gay.com and say hello to death camps, famine and more war.

53 TRILLION dollars in debt. Mostly to China. Think they may be needing those troops for something?

[queerplanet]

For more information on Bush putting US troops in the US and the Posse Comitatus Act....

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/10/7/us_army_denies_unit_will_be

[Yelmey]

Wow where to start?... Well Health care is a Responsibility, not a Right. Socialism is not what made America the Great country that she is today. That was Capitalism.
When a government intervenes in a market, it upsets the dynamics of a market and forces inefficiencies. In a free market, I have the option to pick the best plan for me, from a range of suppliers, at the price I wish to pay. As soon as you get government involved, there are mandates of what plans have to include, it increases prices and consolidates supply. That is bad for the consumers of health care. Not only that, but the government would require taxes to fund such programs. Lets think about that word. It has two meanings which are very closely related. On one hand, it means a government forcibly taking money from an entity. At the same time, it means to place an undue burden on an activity which ultimately limits it. In fact, taxation reduces your economic freedom, placing an undue burden on your ability to prosper while a parasitic government leeches from you. Time and time again has shown that a reduction in tax rates will stimulate the economy and a production of more revenue. Even JFK knew that. The solution for the 21st century isn’t more government interference in your life and less freedom, it is less government interference and more freedom. Get government out of the health care business so that it can operate efficiently again. As it is now, people have no incentive to take care of themselves because their employer or the government will take responsibility for them. Throwing more money at the problem isn’t a solution, it only creates more dependence on the government and less individual responsibility. Of course, the people we elect are more than happy to have more power over you and to be able to threaten to take away the things you’ve come to depend on. That is precisely why we have such a high incumbent retention level. If you support government control of any aspect of your life, you’re voting away your freedom one little bit at a time.

to planetout: McCain has indeed voted to support the "unpopular" Bush 95 percent of the time most recently, but less so in earlier years. And Obama has voted pretty close to 100 percent in line with fellow Democrats during his brief Senate career.
I dispute with you that Bush is a fascist, but rather a "Fiscal Liberal." Also the Republicans are not the only ones responsible for the loss of our rights after 9/11. Take a look at the democrats voting record, they too voted for the "Patriot Act" They too are responsible. I also think you are forgetting when Clinton did not adhere to the Posse Comitatus Act when he used our military in Waco, TX. You are also wrong planetout about our debt. Currently we have a 10.2 trillion dollar debt. Historically the Republican party has been a party of bringing civil liberties to the people. You could make a case that the Democrats historically have been the party of oppression and slavery. But hey that's my 2 cents.

[queerplanet]

When you run health care like a fast food restaurant you get the same quality.

Just to to any emergency room in the USA.

Capitalism didn't make this country great.

This country is not great, in case you have not been paying attention.

Bush is a fiscal liberal? Please. The twisting of words is amazing with you fascists.

He starts illegal wars. He steals two elections. He runs of the largest debt in the history of the country. He destroyed Habeus Corpus.

All, while the Republicans controlled the Congress, Courts and the White House.

So fuck... yeah, go ahead... use semantics to explain away all this.

Go ahead. Vote for McCain Palin and get more of the same.

And I do hope you get sick and have to get to a doctor soon in the USA. It's such a terrific experience dealing with doctors who are beholden to the capitalistic interests of insurance companies and drug companies.

While you're thinking the doctor is concerned about your health, the doctor is thinking about the bonuses he gets for pushing certain procedures and drugs.

Capitalism at it's best.

[Bradley]

HAHA!!!! You think that health care is a right? No, it's not actually its a responsiblity to get that. Its not a damn right, does it say that in our Constitution, Um no it doesn't, How about our Bill of rights, is there any articles saying right to have health Insurance, UMMMMMMM I DON"T THINK SO!!! Wow this country is so great, I don't think so, i was being scarcastic.... I love this country, You know under Obama Plan of Health Care, if you go see a doctor that is not approved by that plan it would be agaisnt the fucking law. McCain plan isn't that good either. I really hate the choices of president canadaites that we have to pick from!!! People need to read and get some fucking education!!!

[Yelmey]

Queerplanet, your grasp of the concept of "Capitalism" is rudimentary at best. Your "facts" about our national debt is laughable, and wrong. I believe you're forgetting who has the right to declare war for America. Don't you remember Kerry saying, "I voted for the war, before I voted against it?" Our congress voted, both democrat and republican to start this war. Maybe, if we hadn't reduced our military and intelligence gathering agencies by half in the 90's we would have had better intel going into the war to begin with. That's besides the point though. What the point is is that your "facts" are flawed or just plain wrong. From the debt to blaming republicans for everything. Democrats have done just as much to reduce our rights in America, as the republicans have since 9/11. Oh, just for the record, bush didn't steal the elections, but I don't think you'll recognize that fact. But since you brought it up lets talk about voter fraud. In the great state of Washington where I'm from ACORN has helped register voters. Though most were, Felons, dead, or where ineligible to vote. I know what you're thinking ACORN wouldn't intentionally and fraudulently try to get dead people and felons to vote would they? Not at all huh? Well maybe they have a different agenda. Here's a link for you to take a look at.

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NDZiMjkwMDczZWI5ODdjOWYxZTIzZGIyNzEyMjE0ODI=&w=MA==

Another point. You can tell a lot about a person by the company he keeps. Obama keeps these people close to him: Rev. Jeremiah Wright, Bill Ayers two people who I'd have to say are Anti-American.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M-kD0QdRJk

I suppose it doesn't really matter though. I've shown that you're "facts" are wrong. Though what you've showed me is quite another. You have lost this debate by attacking me personally. Why would you wish harm on another person? Just because my views and opinions differ from you? We all know that those who resort to name calling, or personal attacks only do so because their arguments are so weak they have nothing left to fall back on except ridicule.

I'll leave you with this last thought queerplanet. "We prosper by the polite challenges to each others ideas. We impoverish ourselves when we don’t allow ideas to be debated."

Yours truly
Yelmey

[John Y]

Yelmey has NOT shown the facts are wrong. He uses baldfaced, bold lies. "Historically the Republican party has been a party of bringing civil liberties to the people." Lincoln, yes. The rest, no: Helms. George Wallace. Lott. Thurmond. Ask any rascist you know which party he is voting for... Republicans USED TO BE fiscal conservatives, but NO LONGER. And Democrats voted for the Patriot Act for the same reason they voted for the Iraq War-- misleading info from KARL ROVE and other Republican Idiots who insisted that Perception was Reality (which it is NOT), fooling politicians and grassroots citizens into pressuring the non-fooled politicians into their "patriotic duty." Ditch the guilty Republicans. Yelmey also like most Republicans today is about lying or anything else necessary to win: eg, "CLOSE to him...Wright...Ayers" !?!?!? That's been disproven 1000 times already, doesn't deserve repetition nor denial. Yelmey deserves any denigrations heaped on him due to his dishonest lies told with wide-eyed innocence. "Look into my eyes, can't you see they're open wide, Would I lie to you baby, would I lie to you?..." Hell yes, and Yelmey did lie. Republicans ARE to blame for the NATIONAL DEBT, for the IRAQ WAR, and for promoting corporations over consumers. Period. And he says MOST (ie over 50%?!!!) of Acorn's registered voters are dead/felons? Absurd. Like Yelmey himself. Democrat is the clear choice for gays or almost anyone else-- unless you're a CEO, or a lobbyist, or a... what are you, Yancey??? Health care is a right. If we can afford the war in Iraq, if we can afford tax breaks for the rich, we can afford health care.

[corrective_unconscious]

No war has been declared by Congress during d.W.i. Bush's ruinous terms, which is an early clue that something was wrong with the entire Iraquagmire run-up.

There were some resolutions concerning authorizations for the use of force, which were sold on cooked intelligence, false 9/11 tie-ins and the idea that these allegedly initial authorizations would be used only as a means of pressuring Saddam with a threat of military action.

You ignorant liar.

[Yelmey]

John y how do you expect me to take you seriously when you can't even make a response without name calling or going for the personal attack?

Well lets see... First off thanks for agreeing with me that "Historically the Republican party has been a party of bringing civil liberties to the people."

Lets go back and revisit that Rev. Wright issue. In Dreams of my Father, Senator Obama explained how he met Rev. Wright, whom he mentioned had been "dabbling with liquor, Islam, and black nationalism in the sixties."

He acknowledged that Rev. Wright immediately had given him fair warning that he was controversial, by quoting Rev. Wright as having said: "Some of my fellow clergy don't appreciate what we're about. They feel like we're too radical. Others, we aren't radical enough. Too emotional. Not emotional enough."

He also acknowledged that Rev. Wright let him know at their first meeting that he looked unfavorably on America and expected to continue to do so, by stating, "Life's not safe for a black man in this country, Barack. Never has been. Probably never will be."

Senator Obama left with one of Rev. Wright's "Black Value System" brochures.

When Senator Barack listened to Rev. Wright's "Audacity of Hope" sermon, September 11, 2001 was years away, but, Senator Obama admitted in Dreams of my Father, Rev. Wright castigated America. .

March of '08 Sen. Obama said, "I don't think my church is actually particularly controversial." He said Rev. Wright "is like an old uncle who says things I don't always agree with,"

Then in a press conference published in the New York Times on April 29, 2008 "You know, I have been a member of Trinity United Church of Christ since 1992. I have known Reverend Wright for almost 20 years. The person I saw yesterday was not the person that I met 20 years ago."

Obviously Obama knew about Wright, but it also raises additional questions for Obama -- including why he maintained a 20-year spiritual relationship with Wright, and why he chose not to denounce Wright when the story first spread.

To the main point of this debate, I think I have shown why I think socialized medicine is wrong in my first response. I have yet to hear why you do support it john y. How is it a "right?" What you are purporting is Socialism.

On the voter fraud issue in the State of Washington the Auditor cleaned up 498,000 ineligible voters in our state alone. Don't take my word for ACORN's corruption here's a link for you to make up your own mind.
http://www.nypost.com/seven/10102008/news/politics/1_voter__72_registrations_132965.htm

John, When you keep raising taxes on corporations and the "wealthy" there reaches a breaking point. Right now in the State of Washington, which for businesses is not a very tax friendly state, we have a company called Boeing. I'm sure you've heard of it. This company is a corner stone of Washington's economy yet they are tossing around the idea of packing up and moving somewhere that is in essence less taxed. America in and of itself is in the top 5 when it comes to taxing corporations. If we were to lower the tax burden on corporations, and make it so that more companies want to build in America we would build more jobs and have more revenue.

John I'll leave you with this last thought a quote from a very good president, Ronald Regan “In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. From time to time we've been tempted to believe that society has become too complex to be managed by self-rule, that government by an elite group is superior to government for, by, and of the people. Well, if no one among us is capable of governing himself, then who among us has the capacity to govern someone else? All of us together, in and out of government, must bear the burden. The solutions we seek must be equitable, with no one group singled out to pay a higher price.”

Best wishes
Yelmey

[yelmey]

corrective_unconscious alright bud I gotta say I can't stop laughing. Iraquagmire that's funny!!! Seriously, thanks for the laugh. I'll concede the point, they voted for the use of force not a "war." I stick by my guns when I say that both the dems, and reps, are responsible for the mess we are in now. Last I looked dems control congress. Why aren't they doing what they promised on the campaign trail and "bring our troops home" I know you heard that line more than enough in the last elections. Lets try to get back on the subject of the health care issue though. You still have not given you're views on the issue. What are they? Do they differ from my opinion? If so how?
Oh one other thing, disagree with the ideas thrown out there all you want but leave the personal attack and name calling at the door. It really takes away from your credibility and point.

[Vincent]

I agree that health care is a right.

Free speech is a right.

Just as I wouldn't expect the taxpayers to pick up printing and or broadcasting costs for my free speech right, I wouldn't expect them to pick up the tab on my health care right.

[Bradley]

Haha I can't stop laughing either i think people like Yelmey, queerplanet and other people out there in the cyber world are such dumbasses. Health Care isn't a right you silly people! Why are we talking about the War this article is about health care. Want you just talk about health care, And thats right Congress declare war not the president, maybe you should read something that made this country. People like Queerplanet, yelmey, and also other people need to read our Bill of Rights and also our Constitution!!!!! And also Congress( which is mostly democrats) are asking countries to give Money, SO SO MY POINT IS IT"S NOT republicans but it's also your beloved party also. So what's up now

[corrective_unconscious]

>Lets try to get back on the subject of the health care issue though. You still have not given you're views on the issue.

My views on health care are that lying, Republikkkan, self hating homosexuals who get diseases from embarrassing the rest of us by playing around in Minneapolis airport mensrooms should have to pay for their STD treatments out of pocket.

Likewise, lying, warmongering, bunker ridden Dick Cheney long ago exceeded his lifetime allowance for health care - with all those coronaries - and should have to pay for his healthcare out of pocket.

After all, health care is not a right (wing thing.)