Huckabee: Gays not bashed enough?

One good thing about washing out of the presidential race early: It gives you a head start in the campaign-memoir race. Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee, making the rounds to promote his book, had this to say to the ladies of "The View."         

"People who are homosexuals should have every right in terms of their civil rights, to be employed, to do anything they want. . . . But when we're talking about a redefinition of an institution, that's different than individual civil rights. . . . Here is the difference. Bull Connor was hosing people down in the streets of Alabama. John Lewis got his skull cracked on the Selma bridge."

"Segregation was an institution, and it was struck down,"  Huckabee was reminded. Someone also piped up about gay-bashing.

"And there's Christian-bashing," he said. "All violence is wrong."

Does anyone else find this guy more frightening than the out-and-out loonies like Michele Bachmann?  (Who, by the way, was re-elected.) Clearly he feels gayness is a matter of individual discretion, kind of like how he lost all that weight to avoid fat discrimination.       

Comments

[MarkF]

What is so upsetting about what Gov. Huckabee said? He's just opposed to "same-sex marriage", that's all. And face it guys, the good people of this country have enough sense in them that eventually this will all be ended by a constitutional amendment to define marriage as between one man and one woman. Just take a look at this very web site's chat rooms. They are filled with child molesters, drug addicts and all sorts of other unhappy people. The "dad/son" room is the most crowded room on here. People routinely solicit for "party and play", the combination of drugs and random sex. I know this is hard to hear but consider it. Homosexuality is a disordered condition. This form of sexuality is destructive, addictive and not healthy. We keep looking for some external thing to change this - in these days it's "same-sex marriage." But the problem is not with society at large. The problem is within us, within the nature of homosexuality itself. It's an illusion, we've been deceived and tricked. And it's not just us, the whole society has been tricked into promiscuity and a life in the flesh. We often hear criticisms of out society that it is too materialistic - but this usually is meant to refer to how we're too much into our cars, jobs and bank accounts and that is true. But the real materialism in America is the one that makes objects - sexual objects - out of each other, and to the expense of God and a life of service to each other. So, try to see past the propaganda, lies and deceit of the this lifestyle. We all deserve better than what homosexuality delivers.

[Robert Hampton Wheat]

As convincing as you were; it is with my best intentions that I disagree. Growing up in a Christian society, I have been conditioned to believe that heterosexuality is right. Not because I believe it, but because I am told it is. When people have inner-conflict because they aren't able to live up to or integrate within social norms i.e. heterosexual-- it would be safe to assume this feeling of isolation and inner conflict might foster some of the negatives you mention concerning "the gays". P.S. statistically 99 percent of child molesters are straight, and I am both happy and not on drugs, imagine that.

[Gary]

Come on Mark F. The gay community is not perfect, I grant you that but no community I am aware of is. If society as a whole was more accepting of gays and their rights, a lot of the fringe would go away, and most would be very mainstream. Do you know many gay people? The vast majority are decent, law abiding people. I guess 99% of gay people do get horny sometimes, that may prove even they are human, like everybody else. That is a part of life.

[John L]

Mark, I cannot for a minnute believe that homosexuality is a disorder. Yes, we see many Gay people who are struggling with drug/alchohol addictions or other behavioral problems. We see many Gay people who's sexual behavior could be considerred perverse. But I think it is because homosexuals, because of who they are and their sexuality, take abuse from this narrow minded, Heterosexist culture that we have grown up in. Gays are often abused by their parents, their churches, and spiritual leaders. I have Gay friends who were cut off from their parents when they came out. I have friends who were spiritually whipped with helfire and damnation from their spritual leaders. Let's face it: Gay people are culturally/socially/religiously abused. Is it any wonder why the Gay community seems to have more than it's share of problematic people? It is, in large part, because society has handed us more than our share of problems. We are the victims of irrational fear, prejudice(homophobia!) We suffer wounds because of this and it has lead many of us to unhealthy behaviors.
I am Christian; I was raised Christian, but more importantly I believe that I have a meaningful spiritual connection with God. And whenever I pray, I am never condemned for being Gay. I am never condemned for loving -truly loving a man. I believe that God wants a Gay lifestyle for me - and I'm not the only one! There is no reason why living a Gay lifestyle cannot be fullfilling or "righteous".

As for Huckabee, shame on him for condemning one prejudice and then immediately espousing another. To me, this only proves further, that the opposition to Gay Marriage Rights is only acting out of irrational fear and prejudice.

[Jeyo]

Mark F. My guess is that in order for one to KNOW so much about what can be found in various chat rooms, they had to have spent a considerable amount of time in them. I have to agree with Gary that most of us are decent law-abiding citizens just like the rest of society.
For every site and example that you use to describe how gays objectify each other, you will find an example of that same objectification among straights. For every "destructive, addictive and not healthy" form of sexuality that you can point out within our community, you will find equal amounts (whether one wants to admit it or not) throughout straight communities. As far as materialism goes. What is wrong with treating ourselves with nice cars, houses, or lifestyles that we work hard to afford? We would share it with spouses and children but.... wait, aren't people like you are fighting against our right to do that?

[Mark F]

OK, how exactly does societal pressure lead to such things as the "Dad/Son" room? Or the "Wet and Messy" (piss and shit) room? Or the "Humiliation" room? Or the "discipline" room? Or those "cigar" guys? Or those "rubber and latex" guys? The guys in the "dad/son" room will tell you that they were molested as kids. Just ask them. They also claim they loved it. We're always told that all gays must have come from loving and normal families. This is said to cover up the truth that we come from kind of messed up, confused or abusive families. Then we're told how nasty these mean ol' Christian families are to their kids. Well, which is it? How can it be that all gays come from wonderful families but somehow these wonderful people turn into monsters when the kid reveals he's gay? Isn't a better explanation for this that these families were messed up when the kid was small, and that lead to the homosexuality in the first place? And wouldn't that theory that homosexuality comes from problems in childhood explain things like the "dad/son" room, the piss room, the humiliation room better than saying it's all that mean ol' Christian society's fault?

And please remember that given that homosexuals are a tiny, tiny part of the population, that something like one-third of all sexual abuse of children is male on young male abuse. How exactly does that mean ol' Christian society make supposedly wonderful and happy people into child molesters? Again, isn't a better explanation that there is something in homosexuality that is inherently pathological?

I know the homosexual answer to all this - that this all happens in the straight world too. And it does, somewhat. What's different is the amount of the homosexual world that is pathological and the extent of that pathology. The most crowded room on straight chat sites is not the "Dad/daughter" room. We don't find straight people cruising in bathrooms and parks. We don't find an epidemic of straight guys abusing little girls in the schools and churches.

[Rick]

I disagree with Mark F on just about everything he has written. But, the one that I am going to go after is straight people cruising rest rooms and parks. It has been my experience that most of the men doing such activities in the mid west are in fact straight married men.

[JimE]

Come on MarkF. Don't believe that only gay men party and play or have promiscuous sex, because hetero folks do too. And the vast majority of child molestation is male on female, within your "sacred" family. Using your logic, we need to eliminate male/female couples because it only creates a space for children to be abused by other family members.

[Paul]

Mark F...methinks the "lady" doth protest too much....

[Jason]

I don't disagree whatsoever with what former Governor Mike Huckabee said. In fact, I voted for him in the Republican primary. And, as a proud member of the GLBT community, it's time we start respecting all views on the marriage issue even if we disagree with him.

From what I just heard in the youtube video, it sounds like Huckabee may finally be ready to jump on board and support ENDA(Employment Non-Discrimination Act for sexual orientation). If so, that's a huge leap for a former Southern Baptist preacher and a leader of the evangelical Christian movement within the Republican Party.

The writer of this news piece, however, spins it to slam someone who doesn't agree with him 100%. Politics in America is more diverse than looking for unanimity.

Bridge differences where you can with people you disagree with and just agree to disagree with those issues you cannot reach agreement on.

And, yes, there is Christian bashing. Gay protestors in Palm Springs, CA shoved to the ground and spit on a 69 yr old lady who carried a cross up to city hall during a Proposition 8 protest.

Hate happens on all sides, folks.

[Chris]

Governor Huckabee gives two examples that set homosexual activism off from other equal rights activism: Bull Connor hosing down the streets and John Lewis getting his head cracked on the Selma Bridge.

Well, Governor Huckabee, since legitimate activism requires an outrageous act against the group that is seeking equal rights then I give you Matthew Shepard, hauled out into the night, tied to a fence and beaten to death for being gay.

Everyone can throw fuel on the fire of discrimination and hatred, including non-supportable root causes that stir up emotional rather than logical debate.

The Constitution of the United States guarantees the right to pursue happiness without defining what happiness should be and without limit on the individual and with few on society. Prop 8 and other on-going movements seek to define limits on happiness, and to confine this definition to a solely heterosexual view.

Perhaps some people find pursuing happiness through sex chat rooms and web sites (gay and heterosexual) a bit "perverse" but should this then be limited through censorship? If censorship is the answer, who will be the censor?

Since Prop 8 is a form of social censorship, who is to say that a trans-gender individual has or does not have the right to marry? After all, if you believe what the news media wants you to believe, a "man" has given birth to a baby! Is he then no longer a "man" under Prop 8? Should that child not be allowed to grow up in a "decent" home where the "man" and woman are married or do these rights pertain only to childeren of natural-born genders?

After all, isn't the root debate about marriage a debate on whether children must be protected? (Or is this argument a veil to hide the root purpose of Prop 8 to deny gays equal rights?) The pro-8 debate goes further to imply that the only happy children are in male-female married households.

Equal rights are not a matter of limiting the rights of one group or another. Equal rights are a matter of ensuring all groups enjoy society's benefits and burdens equally, without regard to race, color, creed, orientation or any individual factor.

[Kevin]

Well, Well, Well, I think that we have find a perfect couple here on this topic. Mark F. and Governor Hucklebee. Mark, you need to grow up and so does Governor Hucklebee. It is with the mind set like that. That does our society in. Not everyone is out to party and have unlimited amount of sex. I have been a relationship for over seven years. I am not a drug user, a drinker, except Soda or Water, and I am not out every night or day looking for sex. Your thoughts are what is wrong with this society. And I bet when you brought up the Dad/Son Chat room. It is not because you are turned off by it. You are turned on by it. Closeted thinking people like you and Hucklebee,and others are what is hurting this World and Society today.

[Mark F]

Well you can say that you disagree with me all you want... but I laid out a consistent argument for my case. No one else did anything of the sort. No one contradicted what I said with a reason. Jim E. and Kevin just distorted what I said. So I'll say it again. The pathological behavior that we see in the homosexual world goes on in the straight world as well, but not nearly to the same extent of depravity nor is it as widespread. Are you both honestly saying that homosexual men behave in the same way as heterosexual? Is there a straight version of sex in public bathrooms with total strangers? Are the straight web sites filled with all the drugs, incest, and twisted things like the humiliation room or the piss and shit rooms on gay.com? The homosexual world is far more debauched, depraved, unhappy and out of control than the straight world. However there is a link between the unhealthy homosexual world and the ill straight world, and that is that both are caused by the same thing - people turning their backs to God. If the straight world were not already so secular and godless, we would not have all the homosexuality that we see. As far as Kevin's personal insults towards me, I will just ignore them as I would a child's taunts.

But it is Rick's comments that deserve some attention. He says that it is straight men who cruise for random sex in public bathrooms. His language is confused but I think I know what he's trying to say, and that is that the men in these places are closeted. That may be the case. But that misses the point that no matter what they call themselves, their behavior is still homosexual. Homosexuality is a behavior, not an identity. Rick even admits as much himself - a man may call himself straight and be married. Yet his behavior speaks otherwise and in this example the behavior is homosexual. It is the behavior of homosexuality that is unhealthy.

But no one said word one about my original main point that you cannot use the alleged pressure of the mean ol' Christian society to explain what we see in the homosexual world. Society can produce things like the "Dad/Son" room, the humiliation room, all the talk about incest, "perv", the rubber and latex fetish people.

And you guys want to have it both ways. You want to say that the homosexual world is the same as the heterosexual. Yet you also say that all the drugs, depravity, "perv", and promiscuity are caused by those mean ol' straight people hating us. Which is it? If it were caused by society, then why aren't things getting better? The fact is that it is homosexuality itself that is unstable and unhealthy. That is what makes people so vulnerable to depression, drugs, suicide and psychosis. It is the abuse and problems in childhood that lead to all this - all the guys who are into incest and kids, humiliation, sadism, pain and torture - all of which flourish on this site - and all the drugs, depression, mental instability and other pathologies.

And and about child abuse, the answer is right in front of us here. How long does it take to find a guy who's into little kids on this site? Five minutes? Is society experiencing a wave of male on female abuse? No, the tiny percentage of homosexual men are committing over one third of all the abuse. I just read that the first same sex couple in England to be foster parents were in reality a couple of organized child molesters. These two are sexual predators and they used the so-called tolerance of the English people to rape little boys. Where are all the cases of male on female sexual abuse in the Church or in Protestant groups? Dudes, lets face it. We've been lied to. We've been fooled. But we don't have to continue to be blind. Homosexuality is an unhealthy lifestyle. It always has been and it always will be. Wishing it were so won't change it.

[Chris]

Mark: Please do an online search for the following: Fetish; rape; incest. Count the number of heterosexual results and the number of gay results. You are completely misrepresenting your case when you imply that homosexuality is the root cause of all of life's ills and the leading cause of abuse and sexual immorality.

Pat Robertson recently said, “These homosexuals will destroy anything” including the institution of marriage. “These homosexuals”, how convenient to dehumanize a son or daughter, aunt or uncle, brother or sister. How easy it is to espouse hatred without fear of causing a human being harm when it’s “these homosexuals” instead of real people.

Placing the ills of society on any one segment of that society is self delusion of the highest order.

You can continue to become emotional and decry all gays and homosexuals as being indecent, depraved and without shame for their debauchery: but be fair about it and denounce the heterosexual world for the same immoralities (on a far wider scale is you would be honest about it). However, be sure that you are without sin before casting that stone or risk becoming what you seem to detest.

By the way: the oldest profession in the world is based on heterosexual public cruising, so don't think gays invented that too.

[Kathleen]

Oh my goodness Mark, if you were a woman you would know how wrong your assumptions are that we do not have an epidemic on male/female sexual abuse. What are the stats these days? Four out of five girls are sexually molested before they are out of high school. If that doesn't say epidemic I don't know what does. And who is doing the abusing--not gay men, that's for sure. Don't blame society's ills on homosexuality. Every homosexual had to have a family and so did the children who murder classmates. How many of them came from homosexual homes? Let's talk about rape of women all over the world for sport by heterosexual men. Let's talk about domestic violence--are most of the women and children in protective shelters there because of homosexuals? You and I both know the answer to that. And if you really want the facts, check out any chat room and watch the people who say they are teenage girls attract the old men. And have you been to any of the internet S&M, or B&D websites? Please--get your facts straight. Each and every one of us is responsible for our own actions toward other people. You cannot blame homosexuals for the ills of this world. The tiny minority of us who are perverts is simply comparable to the comparable percentage of heterosexuals who are perverts. I do believe you are right in one thing--religious faith or rather the lack of religious faith is an important key factor. So figure out to use your faith in the way it was intended and you'll go much further to solving society's problems than by blaming homosexuals.

[Chris]

Well spoken, Kathleen!

[Matt281988]

after all reading Mark's comments I would like his home address so i can send him a big box of about 30 years of newspapers, studies, and stats so he can get up to date.....anyone wanna help fund the "Bring Mark F. Up-to-Date Charity"?

[MarkF]

And again, you all avoid the main issue - homosexuals are a tiny part of the population, yet account for well more - many times more - than their share of child molestations. To say that straight people do these things too means nothing. I'm talking about the percentages. Do any of you want to look at the history of serial killers in this country? Almost half of them were men who tortured, sexually abused and killed other men. To say that there are men who got their thrills doing this to women too misses the point. If the rate were the same, there would be about 5% tops of serial killers like this. It's the same with drug addiction, mental illnesses, alcoholism, domestic abuse... all sorts of instabilities.

And show me where I blamed all the problems of society on homosexuality. I never said that.

When you bring up the sickness that is in the straight world you are getting closer to the point, and that is that without God, man is lost and will act in all sorts of evil ways. Homosexuality is the result of the straight world's failure in the last few decades. You won't find homosexual men being raised where their fathers take an active part in their lives, or where they don't molest them. These guys in the "Dad/son" room will all tell you that they were abused as kids. That's why they are there - to attempt to get over their abuse by re-enacting it.

No one has handled what I've said about all the fetish and kink and "perv" and PNP - how it all comes from pain in childhood, the pain that lead to them to become homosexual and to also get into all these unhealthy scenes. You all will admit that this sort of thing is produced by bad parenting when you want to demonize the straight world as a way of glorifying the homosexual world, but won't admit the same when it comes to the origins of homosexuality itself.

What I'm saying is that the straight world has a cold, and is sick. And out of that sickness has come the pneumonia of homosexuality. That original sickness is materialism, atheism, lack of direction, lack of good values and above all the separation from God. Out of that comes homosexuality, which is far more corrupt and destructive than most anything that comes out of the heterosexual world.

There are all sorts of myths in the homosexual world. One is that homosexuals are normal, healthy and sane. Yet when these normal and healthy people do things like commit suicide, or take drugs, or are in mental hospitals more than the rest of the population, it is society that is to blame. Maybe it's that homosexuality is produced by damage done to a kid and that it leaves people damaged as an adult so they they are more likely to commit suicide or take drugs.

No society has ever lived long once homosexuality has been accepted.

On a personal level, I know all this because I spent, or wasted really, thirty years of my life as an out homosexual man. I came out when I was sixteen back in the 1975. I did newspaper, radio and TV for the homosexual cause for years. I had a lover for close to fourteen years of that and more recently had to put the sexual side of another relationship on hold when I came back to the Church. There was not a more out person around then me. This is what's hard for a lot to accept, and I didn't accept it all overnight either. But we've been lied to. We've been tricked and deceived. Homosexuality is a symptom of the breakdown in morality in our world. I'm not absolving the straight world at all. In fact they are the ones to blame for all this. The whole world - straight and gay - is so far into materialism that it's hard for anyone these days to see what Jesus wants for us. If what I have to say hurts, then I'm sorry.

[andreainFL]

MarkF,
Since you seem to have all of the answers, please explain to me why I am a lesbian. I was not molested as a child, I had a wonderful upbringing, I have never been diagnosed with a mental disorder, I have strong faith in God, I teach 4th grade (and am one of the most popular teachers at my school), and I'm our PTA president. My partner (in chiropractic college) and I raise two beautiful, healthy, happy daughters. Where's your reasoning for all of this, oh knowledgeable one?

[jrod57]

MarkF, Are you familiar with the term cum hoc, ergo propter hoc? I doubt that being gay is the reason people have fetishes. The fact that straight people also have many of the same fetishes seems to support that. The percentages are irrelevant, but you haven't given any evidence upon which you base your assumptions anyway. The number of people in a chat room for a particular fetish certainly isn't proof of anything about the gay community in general.

You make plenty of assertions as if they are fact, but you give no supporting evidence. You also don't say what credentials you have to make the statement that homosexuality is a "disordered condition." The APA declared some time ago that homosexuality is not a disorder. What qualifications do you have to refute that?

Has it occurred to you that while the majority of the people in the chat rooms on this site may indeed be here to fulfill some "perverted" fantasy, that's probably not representative of the gay community as a whole? I would guess that the percentages of gays that chat on this site is very small relative to the number of gays in the world.

As for your argument that homosexuality is borne of the "sickness" of the heterosexual community, I would ask by what standards do you measure the "wellness" of the heterosexual community? Homosexuality certainly isn't new. It hasn't just occurred in the last few decades, so I don't see how it could be argued that it is caused by the moral decay (by your standard, not mine) of society in general. I believe that homosexuality is natural. Not a choice. Likely not caused by any external factor such as abuse. I was never abused. My relationship with my father is just fine. I began having same sex attractions as early as 3rd grade. I didn't understand then, but I remember having them that early.

Your newfound relationship with the church (and you don't mention which one) maybe affecting your own personal feelings about your sexuality, but remember that not everyone shares your beliefs or those of your church. It sounds as though you've adopted some new beliefs in your new religion, and you're now viewing the world through that prism. You're also regurgitating the same weak arguments that the church has been spouting off for decades.

I don't believe in god so I don't put any credence in a religious argument against homosexuality.

My opinion is that gays don't have to justify their behavior or attractions to anyone, so long as they don't break the law (as with pedophilia.) If your moral sensibilities are offended by what goes on in the chat rooms on this site, then why do you visit them?

Your opinion that homosexuality is unhealthy is just that - an opinion. And you're entitled to it. However, I doubt you're going to save very many people on this site. Christians should keep their beliefs in the church. The only life that should be affected by your beliefs is your own. Let me worry about mine. If your religion forbids homosexuality or same sex marriage, then don't be a homosexual or marry someone of the same gender. That's your individual liberty and I won't try to dissuade you from it. By the same token, I have the right to live my life anyway I choose. I was born gay. I choose not to fight the natural attractions I was born with. That's my business, not yours or your church's.

[andreainFL]

jrod57,
Very well written!

[MarkF]

AndreainFL, I a friend who I lived with for fourteen years and who I knew for twenty years. It wasn't until I had known him for all those twenty years that he told me that his mother had sexually abused him. I have another friend who used to swear up and down that he had a great childhood. Then I found out this his mother killed herself. People lie, people cover up these things, people don't want to think about them even to themselves. It's not just sexual abuse that causes it. The real cause is lack of close connection early on with the parent of the same-sex. This is why there is twice as much male homosexuality as there is female. It is more of a leap for the little boy to go from his mother to his father, since the mother does most of the close care of the child. I suspect that no matter what you say, you know this to be true but are not yet to admit it to yourself or to others.

And I wonder about your connection to God. It cannot be the God of Israel, the one who has a son named Jesus and who sent his Spirit to us. That God wants all to repent, and leave behind their sins, and one of them certainly is homosexuality (Mark 7, Rom 1, Eph 5:5, Gal 5:19. Col 3:5, etc.) People will tell themselves that almost any thought they have is from God. So how do we know if it is? If it conforms to the written word of God, to his sacred traditions, to the Church councils, fathers, doctors or saints it is the word of God. If it goes against them, as homosexual acts do, then it is not from God. When someone says that God accepts homosexual acts, they have to tell themselves that they know more than all the saints and doctors of the Church for almost two thousand years. Hmmmm... lets see... who do I believe more? George Michael or St. Francis? Mother Theresa or Rosie O'Donnell?

Jrod57, What I've found is that despite what you say about not believing in God, that you do indeed have a god. Your god is your own homosexuality. Any reasonable person can see the amount of kink in the homosexual world. Heck, these "queer studies" people even celebrate it. But no, you have to deny that what even the queer studies people know - that there is a ton of kink, "perv" and the rest in the homosexual community.

In your blind defense of your god of homosexuality you even won't admit the obvious, that the heterosexual world today is in big trouble. What am I talking about? Divorce, promiscuity, adultery, pornography, single parenting, cohabitation, the sexualization of children, loneliness, the culture of hook ups, unhappy break ups, and above all abortion. You've got to be blind to not see this and not to know that all of this has increased in the last forty years.

As you said, you have no belief in God. And as I said, homosexuality breaks that relationship with God. But you found a new god, your own homosexuality. I was the same way.

[daddy_bear54]

Huckabee is full of shit. So are the religious right, and so are some of the posters of comments here.

[Ken]

Mark F.
As much as I disagree with you, I have to admit I went through a short period of trying to go straight due to trying to fit into social norms,those of which you feel everyone should uphold. Thankfully I came to my sences and learned to love myself as I am. I don't know what Church you attend but I strongly advise you to look up religious cults such as JonesTown. There was even a documentry about it on CNN. it was also known that some of the followers were homosexuls who joined probably becasue they were tring to go straight but ended up going straight to the "Grave" from drinking the poisioned kool aid.

[jrod57]

Markf, you continue to make assertions that you have no evidence (or at least have presented none) to support. Just because a person has a good or bad childhood probably has little or no effect on their sexuality. If that was true, then I would think that homosexuals would make up much more of the population than they do.

As for the religious argument...again, I give no credence to a religious argument against homosexuality. Homosexuality is not my god. In that sense of the word, my "god" would be individal liberty. I don't deny that there is kink in the gay community. Many of the things you list as evidence that the heterosexual community is in trouble are things that you judge based on your beliefs. Your own moral compass. And that's fine. Again, that's a perfectly valid reason for you to avoid those things in your life. I, nor anyone in the gay or straight community, have to justify our lives or decisions to you if we don't seek your approval or share your beliefs.

[MarkF]

As much I blog to homosexuals I am always surprised at how I can say things clearly but am still misunderstood. I never said that I am straight or am trying to be straight or am being asked to be straight. I just don't act on the drives. This is no different than any person who is not married is asked to do. That this is so shocking says a lot about today's society. What I have found is that through prayer and through grace, the homosexual urges have gone down a lot.

About loving yourself as you are, what I've seen is that many homosexuals are filled with shame and self hatred. The cause of this is the shame of emasculating yourself by homosexual behavior. The shame is not from society. I hear homosexual men refer to each other as "she", "her", their chest as their "tits" and worse. I've always wondered where the pride is in this. No man can do this without crushing his self-esteem. I've seen homosexuals call who have their "bar" names, which are always women's name. This is not pride, it's giving up on your masculinity. What I think happens is that homosexuals have so much justified self hatred that it becomes unmanageable. So in order to survive, instead of learning to opt out of all this, they instead throw out all standards. So up becomes down, right becomes wrong and evil becomes good. And we end up with homosexuals trying to force a fundamental change in marriage on the rest of society.

The other thing that homosexuals are too blind to see is how narcissistic homosexuals are. Their whole life is about their own pleasure. They act as if their silly concerns should be the concerns of the whole world. These are rich, pampered, spoiled people who bitch and moan like prissy old ladies when they don't get what they want.

Homosexuality is profoundly immature. Look in any gay bar. You won't see a man who dresses his age. You wont't see a man in a sports jacket hardly. You will see fifty year old guys dressing like they're twenty. I saw a sixty year old guy who had posters of half naked guys on his walls like he was a teenager. It is a prolonged adolescence.

As far as the cult comparison, this again is just the classic homosexual upside down thinking. What I'm saying here right now is what all the saints and doctors of the Church have said for thousands of years. But this is classic modern hubris - we think we know more than any other generation. How this can be when we butcher millions of the unborn in womb every year I don't know. That we can do this legally shows how evil we have become. We sacrifice millions of the innocent on the altar of the ego. Selfishness is the new god, and that god begot homosexuality. What you all don't see, and can't see as long as you're in the homosexual life is how sick it all looks from the outside.

Jrod said what I already know, that homosexuals see the world differently. According to Jrod, child abuse has no affect on kids later on. OK. Just go into the "Dad/son" room and ask them where all this comes from. They will tell you how they were all molested as kids. This is what gay.com supports and covers up, and what you all are ignoring. Things life promiscuity, abortion, kink, "perv", incest fantasies are called normal, and the true normal is berated. I've found when I get homosexuals mad the truth comes out. And the truth is that most homosexuals hate the normal, hate the family, hate children, hate God, hate the Church, and most hate America too.

What I can't wait for is when Rosie O'Donnell's kids get old enough to write a book. Man what a head case that woman is!

[CassM]

Wow MarkF.! You really THINK what you say is the absolute truth instead of what you believe. It is very disturbing to me that people, specifically YOU, think that homosexuality is a "disorderd condition." Please provide on your next comment where you found this information. I am an educated woman and have studied the DSM and homosexuality IS NOT listed as a condition. If you do not know what a DSM is then i'm proven correct again that what you are saying is only your opinion and not facts.
As for your statement on how and why people feel bad about themselves as a result of homosexual feelings, it isn't because they don't want to have those "urges" it is because society and people like you make them/us feel like freaks due to your ignorance and closed minded attitudes towards anyone who doesn't act or feel the same as you.
Keep throwing religion into the subject. If it makes you feel better then good for you. But just remember, the Bible was written by man, NOT GOD. It is not his "word" is is what others have written, conceived, drawn upon, and turned upside down for thousands of years. Organized religion has caused conflict in this world for just as long, creating world wars and atrocities such as what Hitler did. So don't think that looking into the bible and regurgitating what is said will magically make you or anyone else less gay or change their way of thinking.

Do you realize you are provoking more hatred in this world?

Not only hatred in general but hatred towards a community of people who are, among other things, beautiful, professional, law-abiding, loving, friendly, and amazing! We love one another for who we TRULY are, not for who we PRETEND to be???
I would rather be hated for who I AM than be loved for who i'm NOT!!!

[CassM]

One more thing, MarkF. How do you know so much about these websites that you are talking trash about??

Visit them often do you?

[MarkF]

Ah yes, yet another homosexual who openly admits to hate God and religion.

You have your pagan god of homosexuality. In less than fifty years since it reemerged from hell in force we have an AIDS epidemic, scandals of homosexual child abuse in all institutions, a rash of homosexual serial killers (almost half of them - Dahmer, Gacey, Cunanan, Ramirez, etc.) and NO civilization has ever condoned this filth and survived long. But, you have your god of death and you get what you pray for.

As for the DSM, homosexual activists browbeat them into taking it off. The psychologists didn't say it was healthy, just that it wasn't treatable. As far as how mentally healthy homosexuals are, just look in the back of any homosexual magazine for all the ads for psychologists, alcohol and drug therapy, suicide prevention, AIDS therapy, sex addiction therapy. A real healthy life style.

[Logos]

Interesting. Lots of claims of "evidence" here and yet not a single citation of scientific, peer reviewed evidence. Saying that most wrong doers are homosexuals is meaningless if not supported by scientific fact. Second, many societies have thrived for long periods of time with active, accepted homosexuality. Ancient Greece and Rome are two excellent examples. Yes, in Greece, homosexual activity was taught in the schools as part of an education. Alexander the Great, Aristotle, Plato, Socrates were all gay. Rome lasted for well over 500 years. No civilization, no matter it's morality goes on forever. Third, the DSM used to include homosexuality as a disease but that was removed in the DSM III. Fourth, "judge not lest ye be judged. Fifth, so what? So people are gay. Big deal. If you look at primates, most of them display homosexual behavior. Are you going to say that dogs go to hell for licking each other? Or will you deny that mammals evolved from a common ancestor? Sixth, the greatest risk of a child molested is having a stepfather--this goes for boys as well as girls. Check out PsychInfo and do a search on this issue (that is the professional database containing scientific data). Seventh, if you wish to live in a country that is rule by theocratic law, many of them do exist. You might enjoy the divine rule that is the basis of law in Iran, Saudi Arabia, or even Yemen. And by the way, there significantly more Islamics in the world than their are christians. Even the founders (Washington, Jefferson, Adams, Hamilton, Franklin) did not believe in JC. The founders were deists. Jefferson even wrote his own version of the bible. They strongly felt that the rule of law should not be determined by a single religion. Ninth, do not force your ideas on me. I have not stoned you for having lain with a man, nor having worked on the sabbath, nor for not tithing ten percent of your property to the temple (all required in Leviticus), so do not be so arrogant to think that you know what is better for anyone else. And what arrogance to think that you know what god believes. Tenth, I am sorry that you have chosen to deny yourself and that you have given up your free will. Lack of faith in your mythology and dogma is not destroying your country, rejection of science in favor of faith is what is destroying this country.

[Lorraine]

Mike F, don't let facts get in the way of your self hatred and bigotry!

An overwhelming majority of child abuse cases involve heterosexual men and female children, most of them in the (heterosexual) family. And overwhelmingly it is the biological father, with stepfathers next, and foster/adoptive fathers last.

The case you quoted of a single case of abuse by two gay foster parents was not 'the first same sex couple to become foster parents in the UK'.
Gay men and women have been fostering children for years in the UK, and are actively recruited by childrens' organisations. Now that Civil Partnerships are established in Britain the law has changed so that Gay couples can legally adopt children. This was passed with minimal opposition.

The one case, though tragic, contrast with many cases of abuse by heterosexual foster parents.

As for yourself, you seem to have an unhealthy obssession with some of the chatrooms on gay.com! You would be healthier and happier if you were in a loving relationship with a good man.

[CassM]

Well said Lorraine and Logos!! I had that question for Mark as well.

Where is he getting his facts?? They are so unfounded it is absurd.

If you don't like those chat rooms stay out of them. AND get your "facts" straight about abuse, especially domestic violence. Look up the REAL statistics on what type of people the perps are.

Lastly, if you think that every gay man did not have a loving father or father figure in their life you are truly an idiot. I really feel sorry for you. Go to the library and read up a little more. You may not like it but you will soon realize how wrong you are.

[HT]

Mr. Huckabee is consistently correct in that clip.

There is zero legitimate argument here.

And I am attracted to men too, so don't call me phobic or anything else. Just because I am bi doesn't mean I'm not going to listen to others and their points of view.

[HT]

(please search the time and date for the full comment)
Posted by: MarkF | November 22, 2008 at 12:03 AM

Chicken or the egg.

Why are so many gays anti-community, prone to spreading diseases, and so on? Malicious intent? Basic amorality? Chronic depression? Why those? Amongst other possibilities is this: Reactions to a society which is still perceived to be largely anti-gay.

And sometimes it's still anti-gay because GLBT people come across narcissistic. Even now, with Obama elected, and not a month has gone by, and they* are more concerned with "don't ask don't tell" than far more pressing and far greater reaching issues.

Roseanne was right and did not need to apologize.

* they instead of "we" because DADT affects such a small amount of people; as does legal civil unions, which given that a seemingly 5% of the GLBT people want it (and we are 5% of the general populace), I wouldn't bother with it either. If 90% of us wanted civil unions, it'd be another story. But given how shallow the community is (I once put up a personal ad looking for those who had AIDS. The results were appalling; there were folks happy to oblige.)

Our society is indeed sick, though looking for the core problems seems to be a better thing to do.

[MarkF]

Left unsaid is why the "Dad/Son" room on here is the most popular. If you want to pretend that is OK, or is meaningless, fine. But lets see you try to sell this idea openly to the rest of America. You've got a web site right here in front of you that promotes the sexual abuse of children, or in the code language of this site, "likes them young." And yet no on here seems to care. I keep hearing the same thing back about most of the abuse is done against young girls. Fine but pretty near one third of it is against little boys, and that one third is done by a tiny segment of the population, which means that tiny segment of the population is abusing kids at a much higher rate. Look at the abuse scandals - the ones of systematic, predatory, repeat offenders. It has plagued the Catholic church, the Boy's Choir of Harlem, the national HS newspaper group Foxfire. Every large group that deals with young boys has been attacked by men looking to have sex with young boys, not by men looking for young girls. And all of this was done by homosexual men. Can someone tell me one such equivalent systematic scandal involving attacks by men on young girls? The public schools have the same problem and the small percentage of homosexual men commit way more than their share of the abuse. But again, you can be blind to that because it's not in front of you. What's harder to be blind to is the abuse that's fostered right here in front of you all on this site. Yet when I bring it up, I am the one who's blamed. Last night I talked to a guy who said that him and his father still have sex and that he and his father and his sons all have sex. I think I could find another guy like that in less than five minutes. You people are enabling all this. You don't want to look at it and its right in front of you.

Logos is pretty inarticulate but he represents the modern world perfectly. He characterizes all morality as if its comparable to stoning women. Well look around you to see what this has wrought. We've got a society where kids are sexualized, where they think its normal to have sex with anyone when they want with who they want. And the results? Kids whose hearts are broken, who are not prepared for marriage, a society where its normal for a child to have no father, or for a mother to kill her unborn child for the sake of convenience. And all so people can act like children and be as irresponsible as they want as adults. This is the cultural background for the homosexual movement. This is what creates it and supports it. And you all know it. This is why you all want to destroy marriage - it's no fun and gets in the way of all your fun too. This is called cultural suicide, and on the personal level its a prolonged adolescence. And this is why you all hate the Church. It gets in your way and reminds you of things you don't want to think about. So blame the messenger. But never blame the pagan gods that you all seem to worship. You call this freedom. Civilized societies before us have called is license. Yes, the Greeks and Romans had homosexuality, but it helped to destroy them. The emptiness that a life that is separated from God eventually catches up to us. This is why Christianity spread so fast in a world that was just tired and worn out. And you all admit freely that you don't know God. You don't want to. He gets in your way of having fun. So you have your own god, your own homosexuality, or your own personal freedom to do whatever you want. Yet, when that god fails you all - when this out of control life comes crashing down on your heads, the Church will be there, and just like she was for me, she won't say anything to you accept, "Welcome home."

[JohnG]

MarkF, you are simply a sick, disgruntled, and pathetic man who is looking to place blame for your life's problems on the gay community rather than your own actions. Your arguments are incredibly weak (at the best) or entirely manufactured. Your "God" is a mythology which has been constructed over thousands of years to control the masses. Do some research - while there may have been a man named Jesus, every custom the Church has created to honor him (Christmas, Easter, transubstantiation, on and on and on...) was based on the rituals and customs of the very "pagans" you decry. Even if you were to give your Christian cult credence, don't you find it amazing that Jesus had not one word to say about homosexuality, considering that you (and every fundamentalist religion in the world) find it to be the root cause of every evil in the world, the ultimate sin? You'd think Jesus might have brought that up.

As well, get your facts straight before making sweeping accusations. You state that the "Dad/Son" chat room is the most popular (and thus emblematic of some disease at the core of our community). That is just blatantly false. Sure, there may be a large congregation there, but it is totally eclipsed by the number of users chatting in local geographical rooms. Add those numbers up and you will see for yourself - the vast majority of users on this site use it to communicate with members of their own local community, not any particular fetish. Furthermore, this site was specifically created to provide chat rooms for different sexual interest groups - so why is it surprising that you see so many flavors? Not everyone has the same likes and dislikes when it comes to sex.

To a small extent, I feel compassion and sorrow for you that you have failed to find meaning in your life without resorting to a dogmatic religion which denigrates a key component of your identity. But, at the end of the day, it is you who is responsible for your decisions. Do us all a favor. Live your life as you see fit. Let us live ours as we see fit. Do not impose your self-righteous certitude in your primitive belief systems on others. You are not omnipotent and should have the humility to realize that. Do good deeds unto others, and worry not about how others may take dissimilar paths in this life, and then maybe you will find the peace in life you are so obviously looking for.

[MarkF]

So incest is just another flavor to human sexuality now? Will you say that in public sometime?

As for Jesus and homosexuality, Mark 7, "fornication", i.e., all sex outside of marriage, heterosexual, homosexual. And Luke 10:16, "He who hears you hears me..." Jesus speaks through his apostles like St. Paul, who was specific about men who lust after other men. (Romans 1:27)

You make my point so clearly - anything that stands in your way of your own homosexuality has to be destroyed. This is why you try to destroy Christianity. Again, will you be honest the next time you talk in public about homosexuality that you want to destroy Christianity and that you hate it?

That is what makes it your god. You are filled with hatred for the normal, and you show it when you say that incest is just another flavor to sexuality. Again, lets here you say that in public next time you want to redefine marriage. The public is slowly catching on that what homosexuals say and do in private is not what they say and do in public. You can call me whatever you want, but I am brave enough to say what I believe in and it's the same no matter where I am or who is around.

Tell some kid who get abused because of this site that it's just another flavor to sexuality and he should learn to like it.

[Aaron]

You all are too nice, MikeF is obviously a yes on 8 voter who masturbates to gay websites..... all the straights on here since then, dear me. Marriage=love, are gays incapable of love in the opinion of all these people just because a few have sexual perversions that are just as predominant if not more so in heterosexual society? I don't think so. So here i am and I am ashamed to be an american at this point, ashamed to live in a country that will take away the rights of others just so that they can feel that what they are doing is a little more just.. a little more *shined on by the eyes of God* well guess what, God also said not to divorce.. so if your a straight person on a gay thread talking about the sanctity of marriage and you have any inclination that may ever get divorced, or know people, or have relatives who are divorced.... thats a spit in the face of "holy sanctity" as for people having they're skulls cracked, does anyone not remember Stonewall, or Michael Shephard? my point, if i have one, is that people are people, love is love and huckabee makes me want to scream fuckabee!

[MarkF]

You can say all you want, but you can't deny that there has never been a culture built on homosexuality that lasted or was not filled with depravity. You can re-define what's depravity to avoid that but the truth will win out.

And I notice that when upset, homosexual will spew forth a stream of obscenities and vulgarities. If you want to live in darkness that is your choice, but I chose to move from darkness to light. The problem is that you want society to live in darkness too.

[HT]

Posted by: Aaron | November 22, 2008 at 01:09 PM

I am bi (gay leaning but have no qualms shunning those emotions) and I have reservations on the belief MOST gay people, particularly men, can or will feel love. Unscientific studies I made featured more men interested in quick bang-up sex or even willfully giving HIV than wanting a relationship.

And I'm sorry MarkF feels the way he does. Amongst other things, I don't want society to live in darkness. Society would rather turn off the light switch and shoot us who hold lit flashlights too, may I add...

[Jeyo1]

Mr. Mark F. since we are in the presence of all knowing source on homosexual matters and the reasons for why we are the way we are, I would like to take advantage of getting the following questions answered. I tried consulting God myself over many years but received no response.

Why is it that I am gay when I was raised by a very close, loving family? I have a mother, step-father and five uncles, etc. I mention that to stress that there is no shortage of masculine, straight male figures in my life.

Why is it that I am gay despite having never been molested, not being raised to believe that gay is right or ok, growing up in a "normal" household, turning to God to be changed, or at one point hating it to the point that I tried to take my own life to escape it?

Why is it that my half-sister and half-brother were molested as children (recently told); my sister for about 10 years and my brother I'm not sure how long? Yet both are straight and had/have not turned to God as I had done.

Why is it that I am gay yet have never had anonymous sex, never entered any of the chat rooms you've mentioned, has not dated in years, has been celibate for years, pretty much can go undetected because of my straight demeanor (not an act, there is a difference), and do many things that happen to commonly be associated with being straight?

Why is it that I spent a good portion of the first 17 years of my life doing everything I can to fight against being this thing that society hates so much, which included accepting God into my life, dating girls, doing everything that every other boy/man does so that I can set myself on the right track but yielded no change and eventually attempting suicide to escape my gayness?

Why is it that I was taught to hate myself for what I am and became so disgusted by it that I prayed and prayed to God to change me to the straight person I am supposed to be?

Why is it that the Bible preaches love yet many of God's believers spew so much hatred toward someone he created?

Why is it that Gays aren't allowed live their lives in peace like everyone else and left to be judged my their maker when the time comes?

I'm sure I have many other questions I can ask but receiving the answers to those will suffice. Since God is busy giving you and other non-gay believers all the answers maybe you can find those out for me. Make no mistake, I am happy and proud of who I am now. My guess is that God gave no response to my questions about what is wrong with me because there is nothing "wrong" with me. He created me just as he wanted me.

[Kathleen]

Mark--I'm not sure exactly why you have posted here. It seems you just like hanging out with the gay community and by telling all of us how sinful we are, you get to justify being here. I can see no other logical reason for you coming here and spouting all of the unsubstantiated propoganda you are saying. For instance you said "And again, you all avoid the main issue - homosexuals are a tiny part of the population, yet account for well more - many times more - than their share of child molestations. To say that straight people do these things too means nothing. I'm talking about the percentages." Where are you getting the specific statistics you are alleging? Because I simply don't believe it's true. I could go into the Catholic priest issue and how many more women have been abused over the years by priests, but that's just not as newsworthy as homosexual priests, now is it. And the other part you said about the fact that saying straight people behaving in the same manner (molesting children, fornicating outside of marriage, etc) means nothing shows that you really aren't interested in doing anything but getting attention from a gay crowd. Because if you are truly a Christian,you would have to admit it certainly does mean something. You are just using us to rationalize your 'research' of checking out all those websites, and of hearing our points of view (which I'm guessing you would really like to believe). So--I for one think you have nothing more of interest to say and I'm going to ignore you. You talk so much about your religious zeal--well, it's certainly not the Christianity I practice. Go somewhere else to look for attention--hey how about those websites you mentioned, wouldn't that be more fun to talk to those folks about your common knowledge of the subjects?

[corrective_unconscious]

By the ex gay/trolls logic, we may defame all str8 men and heterosexuality itself on the basis of all the rapes of women.

MarkF is a sick sideshow in the thrall and employ of ignorant bigots.

[Danny]

Aaron - I'm not talking down to you when I make the assumption that you are probably a young guy. But having said that, I want you to know that as a gay man in a 25 year relationship there is hope, if that is what you seek.
Your assumptive age, societal expectations, and the mere fact that men and women "can" get married might make it seem like "most" gay men don't want relationships. Everyone wants to be loved Aaron...everyone! We sometimes confuse sex with love and I believe this is the situation you are describing.
My relationship is far from perfect, but whose is...straight or gay.

Best of luck to you.

[Tyson France]

Wow...this headline was the biggest leap of logic I've ever seen in my life.

[Andrew]

MarkF.

The problem with your logic is that you are equating both homosexuality and homosexual sex with same-sex marriage. Also, you are generalizing an extremely diverse community. Unfortunately, those that you most often see at sex clubs and on personal websites do not and cannot represent the community as a whole.

[Kalbo]

Barbara Wilcox calls this "scary!"

If you think Huckabee's words are "scary" it makes me wonder if you sleep with a nightlight on.

Huckabee's speaking of gay marriage in the same terms that Joe Biden used during his VP debate. Did you think that was scary?

I also saw no indication whatsoever that Huckabee was "bashing" gays and or lesbians.

Oh I just noticed, he's a Republican. In that case it's obvious that Ms. Wilcox assumes that the -R means Huckabee hates gays and want to bash us. Grow up, Wilcox and open your eyes.

The two biggest setbacks for gays nationally were perpetrated by Democrats. Democrat Sen. Sam Nunn (now a top advisor to Barack Obama) was the prime legislator for instituting Don't Ask Don't Tell in 1993. DADT was signed into law by Bill Clinton.

The Defense of Marriage Act was supported by all but two Democrats in the US Senate and signed into law by Democrat Bill Clinton.

Fortunately, many gays and lesbians either already recognize or are coming to recognize that the major setbacks in gay/lesbian progress in the last 16 years were at the hands of Democrats.

Republicans had control of both the White House and the Congress from 2001 until 2007. Tell me, did they institute policies like these? No, of course not. Even if they had wanted to, their work was already done for them. Did the GOP congress and White House institute further restrictions on gay and lesbian rights during those years? No.

In spite of all the fear tactics used by gay and lesbian Democrats in 2000 and 2004, George Bush did NOT have us all herded away and exorcised. Wilcox wants to scare you (scary!) because she knows that fear is a powerful emotion. Once you let emotions take over, you don't notice that what she contends is just wrong on it's face and requires a herculean leap of logic to reach the same conclusion that she reached.

Actions speak louder than words. Negative actions by the Democrats have far exceeded the negative words of the GOP.

Scary!

[Chuck]

OMG. That fucked up troll, Airforce what the fuck is his name, is back again, this time under the name of Mark F.

When I first saw Mark's postings, I thought they had a familiar ring to them. One has to wonder what a guy's motivations are for hanging around in a gay chat room, when he goes on a hate rant about homosexuality. He got pretty low-down and rauchy about it when some of us began to challenge him.

This ex-gay homophobe was haunting these blogs before Gay.com had it's face lift. It took a little time, but I, corrective unconsciousness, and a couple of other guys I used to see on these threads finally got his ass booted.

I see that some of you are making a real conscious effort to make Mark see the light of day. Ain't gonna happen folks, and you nice guys are wasting your breath opening yourselves and your relationships up to this creep who would sell you down the river before you could say jack rabbit.

The lady doth protest too much me thinks.

Either ignore him...or report him. This shit head has no business being on these threads. I can't figure out why he isn't in one of the many heter, anti-fag room that would gladly clasp him to their hateful bosoms.

[Chuck]

Hey, corrective. I see you are still blogging away at the hypocrites and hellfire and brimstone types. The format may have changed, but the bucket still seems to be filled with the same old shit. lol

I moved on over to Queerty and finding that I enjoy the conversations going on over there. The guys are much more friendly and the chat exchange is more satisfying and with less need to have to defend our lifestyle from assholes like MarkF aka Airforce blah, blah, blah.

I do miss your witty comments however, but I can't say that I miss Franch. Does he still post on Gay.com, or did they finally throw his TOA out? He was really beginning to pluck my nerves. lol

I will be canceling my premium membership with Gay.com, despite the fact that they gave me an extra free month due to all the set-up problems they were having before I quit coming to his site.

Hope you are doing well. Come on over to Queerty sometime and say hello to the boys there.

Happy Thanksgiving.

[Chuck]

Hmm...I see that Gay.com has taken it upon itself, among other things, to change my ID to Chuck instead of cbdcs4u which is the ID that I posted under.

No wonder I got the hell out of here. ;-)