Vote Yes Crowd Turns to Judicial Intimidation

On the heels of yesterday’s decision by the California Supreme Court to hear arguments about the constitutionality of Prop 8’s outcome, a new political maneuver is being turned to by the Vote Yes crowd:  political intimidation.

The Vote Yes folks are threatening to lead a statewide recall against any and all justices on the CA Supreme Court that vote to overturn the outcome of the referendum (and thus re-legalize same-sex marriage in California). Justices in CA – and in all states, and at the federal level – take an oath, upon being sworn into office – to withstand any and all acts of political threat and intimidation. 

I have little doubt that the justices on the CA Supreme Court will do just that.  I have little doubt that they will reach whatever decision they ultimately reach oblivious to these and all other threats. Moreover, I have little doubt that the recall will fail, electorally.  However, it won’t fail politically, in terms of generating an ever-deepening trough of red-meat hate for the homophobes to use in their crusade against civil rights for Queers.

Let ‘em.  Hate, intimidation, anger, threats.  As it says in the Bible, “by their fruits, so shall ye know them.”

Comments

[Marlon Lacsamana]

Nepal (Yes, Nepal) Legalizes Marriage Equality
by Kilian Melloy
EDGE Contributor

Mere weeks after the most populous state in America saw voters approve a ballot initiative to rescind family parity for gays and lesbians, a tiny nation halfway across the world has cleared the way for its gay and lesbian citizens to enjoy fully equal family rights.

Nepal, a conservative country dominated by Hindus, saw marriage equality upheld by its Supreme Court on Nov. 17, according to a Nov. 19 article posted at Ground Report.

Marriage equality is a direct result of a ruling by the court that issues equal protections under all aspects of the law to GLBT citizens of the nation, which is headed up by a Maoist government.

Marriage equality or a near-equivalent is a matter of law in nations as diverse as Canada, England, France, South Africa, South Korea, and Spain, the article noted.

In the United States, only two states currently recognize marriage equality, Massachusetts and Connecticut. The state of California briefly extended family equality, but that right was stripped from gay and lesbian families in that state with the passage of anti-gay amendment Proposition 8 earlier this month.

In 28 other states, anti-gay constitutional amendments have made access to marriage equality a legal impossibility for gay and lesbian families.

The leader of Nepal’s GLBT equality advocate group, the Blue Diamond Society, was quoted in a Nov. 19 story at the Hindustan Times.

Said Sunil Panta, "The court has instructed the government against making any discrimination on the basis of sex.

"This is a landmark decision for the sexual minorities and we welcome it."

Said Panta, "The court ordered the government to form a seven member committee to formulate laws that recognize same-sex marriages in European countries, ending all types of discriminations [sic] against gays and lesbians."

Last year, the court officially acknowledged the existence of gays and lesbians and extended citizenship to them; in Nepal, a "third sex" is recognized for individuals who are attracted to members of their own gender, or who identify with the gender opposite to that of their bodies.

Pointed out Panta, "The Supreme Court’s order also includes the right to own property and right to employment."

Ground Report further quoted Panta as looking to the future of global GLBT equality, saying, "I don’t think we’ll see much momentum on gay issues in the Middle East and Africa beyond what has already happened in Israel and South Africa...

"I think the gay rights movement of the 21st century will be fought in these two areas of the world. Aside from this great ruling in Nepal, we’ve seen some encouraging signs Asians are finally willing to talk about sexuality."

The Ground Report noted that already the decision is affecting how the GLBT members of other societies in the region view themselves and their prospects, most significantly, India.

The Indian Supreme Court recently turned away a petition to decriminalize same-gender sexual contact between consenting adults.

Said Panta, "Reading this decision my eyes were filled with tears and I felt we are the most proud LGBTI citizens of Nepal in the world."

Kilian Melloy reviews media, conducts interviews, and writes commentary for EDGEBoston, where he also serves as Assistant Arts Editor.

[MarkF]

Yes, say it again... the MAOIST COMMUNIST dictatorship of poor Nepal has forced in this traditional, religious society the acceptance of a sinful and destructive behavior. Hmmm... communists...forcing it on the people against their will... sounds like CA.

[Me]

These justices should be afraid! Be very afraid!

Insider sources said that they also have "Plan B" in case they fail. Jesus has personally guaranteed them he would smite these judges if the recall fails. The only thing that still being worked out is how he would smite them. Don't count on diseases, droughts, famines, bugs, darkness or conquering armies... They're all passe! Expect something more creative such as blasting christian rock music at the CA Supreme Court Building until they all go insane or turning their wives into Sarah Palin, etc...

[jett]

Threats and violence is always the best way win the hearts of the American people,....this will only turn more people off to Gays,...good job a**holes.

[Glenn Lennox]

The CA Supreme Court justices will do whatever is best for themselves. They will choose to go with the right wing people so they can keep their jobs. We don't stand a chance cos these people don't support us. We need to get out and vote in the people we want in office and then we wouldn't be in this position as much. This serves gays right for not getting involved in politics.

[Mr. Fylth Pig]

Jesus would have voted no on 8. If the bible is right we know now the Anti-Christ has them going with all this hate. Jesus promoted LOVE not HATE.
And when judgment day comes, all these prop 8 supporters will be sent into the Lake of Fire for all time. Why don't they move out of America and make their own country and stop taking away all our human rights. What's next?
Love conquerors all.

[Ralph]

One Man, One Woman. Have it your way, BUT here are some conditions that YOU MUST follow to keep the Gay community from having the Marriage right.

1.) You can only marry 1 time. This is 'till death do you part. Like "your" book (bible) says.

2.) Once you have a child, 1 per your marriage, the woman will undergo a total Hysterectomy and the male get an Orchiectomy regardless.

3.) If you have an affair that cause a child to be born, the woman will receieve a hysterectomy and the male will have an Orchiectomy.

4.) Straight dating has the same affects as a marriage if a child is brought into the world.

The GLBT community will have the option for these procedures but aren't held to them. In essence, you give up your reproduction rights for our marriage rights. Seems fair to me!

(Note: My views only!)

[Seth]

Wow, whats a democracy if the PEOPLE can't live with decisions the PEOPLE have made. For crying out loud, go live somewhere that allows gay marriage and stop harrassing the people who don't want to live with it. That's the beauty of the United States, there are 50 different places to live. It's irritating that a minority thinks the majority needs to live by their views and standards. As a homosexual I stand against gay marriage, I voted when I lived in Missouri to ban it and voted again in Texas to ban it. All I see in the gay community is wreckless sexuality, in my eyes homosexuals don't deserve the blessing of marriage. That's good to start making threats and what not, because as much as we all know gays are all talk, unfortunately those uneducated, poor "homophobes" have no problem acting on their threats. Stop pushing a minority agenda and be happy with what you have.

[Humm]

I think my stepmother said it best,

"Whenever I look at the 'Yes on 8' supporters, all I hear is the theme song from Deliverance."

[db]

The people voted, you lost, deal. The more you protest and parade around the more turned off these people will be. Why not push instead for partnership rights federally? Funny how this gets little resistance, and little attention. I wouldn't care if I wasn't "married" and living happily together.

[homo1]

To all you retarded christian right people getting on gay.com to spout your foul mouth crap about the LGBT community. STOP BEING A CLOSET HOMO!!!!!!

[hate begets hate]

All I keep hearing about on the news is gays being violent or storming churches and spreading hate; yet we claim to be victims of hate and injustice. Hmm sounds like typical Liberal philosophy: hypocrisy.

[hate begets hate]

marriage isn't a human right; gays are able to love and be with someone w/ or w/o marriage or even a gay union. gays are acting like the terrorists abroad. This country is about to go down the toilet with all the racial/gay/terrorist/corrupt CEO/media bias crap going on... We're heading for either Communism and/or a Liberal Nazi Germany headed by Adolf Obama (redistribution of income - total government control of our lives).

[Obamanation]

visit www.howobamagotelected.com and watch the video

[Bruce]

Some things will never change. I just tried to explain to my aunt that my being gay is NOT a choice, that I WAS born this way. She said I'm going straight to hell, that God would never "create" a homosexual. I asked her then why are there blind people, why are there challenged people--did they choose to be blind or disabled? You know what she said--that was God's will, or the parents did something wrong to deserve it! 95% of my closest friends and relatives at least tolerate me, but its the 5% that cause us all the problems and seem to have the most political clout.

[Lux Dreaming]

I am truly stunned by the hate spewed by closet(?) queers here. My HUSBAND (Married September 6th, after being together for 17 years!!!) want nothing but equal treatment under the law...the Supreme Court is EXACTLY right in it's rulings...if Slavery and/or interracial marriage had been put up for popular vote (for those of you who need a history lesson...Loving Vs. Virginia), then today interracial marriage would still be illegal. Don't believe me? Just listen to the account of 3rd graders chanting such things as "Assinate Obama" on their school buses (their parents should feel soooooo proud).
I am SICK AND FUCKING TIRED of being treated like a second class citizen!!! I REFUSE to sit back and watch someone trample my CIVIL rights due to their beliefs....I don't legislate that they can't believe what they believe...they shouldn't legislate how I live my life...particularly when i PAY MORE IN TAXES THAN THESE DUMBFUCKS EARN IN A YEAR!!! Pissed off? You fucking bet!!! And I will protest every single religious organization that tries to deny me my tax paying civil rights that I have to, even if it includes (as you closet fundies, call it threats) calling these assholes out on their bullshit!!! P.S. The UK is about to start proceedings to strip the Mormon Church of its' tax exempt status over this very issue....about time!!! If you want to be political, fine. Just pay your fucking taxes like the rest of us!!! And again....stay the hell out of my civil rights...or, as the sign I carried last weekend says...."WHEN DO I GET TO VOTE ON YOUR MARRIAGE?!?!?"

[nutloaf]

While I am no fan of the institution of marriage and would never wish to enter it myself, the plain fact is that if I wished to, I could not. A minority is being oppressed by a majority here. This is not a matter which should be decided by popular vote; this is a matter of constitutionality. Depriving a segment of the population of its rights in matters of things like inheritance, hospital visitation, spousal benefits in and out of the workplace and the like because there is a bigoted majority is not constitutional. The fact that it is possible to impose a constitutional amendment denying a minority the rights granted to the majority is where our constitution is badly flawed. The nation is obviously is not, and never has been, "dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal." Those are just empty words. The fact that a bigoted majority can hold sway over the scales of justice harks all the way back to back to mob lynchings.

[Shaun]

I love how you ended the article with a scripture. I did the same with those trying to use the word of God to perpetuate their own points of views in West Hollywood this past Halloween. More of that needs to happen.

[Tony Ford]

I'd love to be able to LEGALLY marry my guy, and I hope common sense wins out and this vote is turned back. But is anyone truly surprised by this tactic? The article ends with the verse “by their fruits, so shall ye know them.” Exactly, the haters have learned our tactics well, haven't they? Why are we so pissed off to have something we as a group do constantly turned against us. Just as we can boycott or work to uphold or overturn votes and amendments, so can they. It's America, love it or leave it. As long as we keep butting heads we will get nowhere. By the time I'm 80 maybe I'll be able to marry.

[Gregory - iconicscooter (gay.com)]

And is ANYONE surprised at this:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/nov/21/obama-to-delay-repeal-of-dont-ask-dont-tell/

Gays will not learn that Democrats are NOT on their side; watch what people do NOT what they SAY they're going to do.

This is a repeat of Clinton when he took office. AND he signed DOMA!

For DECADES the Dems have had the power to enact so much to reduce discrimination and HAVE NOT.

And how many other "special interest" groups and "minority groups" have they done this with and yet claim they are the party of such.

WATCH WHAT PEOPLE DO NOT WHAT THEY SAY THEY'RE GOING TO DO!

Get a clue!

[MarkF]

Mr. Filthy Pig, did Jesus also promote homosexuality? If so, I'd like to see you cite your source. If Jesus was all about love in all forms, as you imply, then why did he tell the woman taken in adultery to "go, and do not sin again?" (John 8:11) Why does he he tell us that both fornication and adultery defile us? (Mark 7:21) The Church teaches that all sex outside of marriage is fornication, so when Jesus used that word he means to include all homosexual acts. Jesus commissioned his missionaries and apostles (today's ordained priests) to speak in his name, ("He who hears you hears me..." Luke 10:16) So when St. Paul talks about "...men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men," it is Jesus speaking through him. (Romans 1:27)

I know this is hard to hear because I used to live as a homosexual for a long time too. I'm showing you this to show that it is possible to just stop acting in a way that separates us from God. His own words tell us that homosexuality separates us from God. The Church does not ask us to become straight, just not to act on our same-sex inclination. What I've seen first hand is that homosexuality fools us, it's a deception that does not give us what it promises. God's word does not fool us or disappoint us. It is hard at first to leave all this behind. But just take a good look around you like I did with open eyes at what sort of world homosexuality has produced. Just listen to what people on this web site's chat rooms say and do. If I may be direct, one doesn't have to think of himself as a "filthy pig." That is the devil working who wants us to act as animals, not as men. And once we accept what Jesus teaches, we don't have to be perfect. There is always confession and forgiveness of sin. I still sometimes commit my old sins again, but less and less so. God would not call us to do something that we cannot do. But we are all called to sacrifice what we want in his name and carry our own cross. I really hope that someone will hear this in the spirit that it's meant.

[Mike]

"marriage isn't a human right; gays are able to love and be with someone w/ or w/o marriage or even a gay union. gays are acting like the terrorists abroad. This country is about to go down the toilet with all the racial/gay/terrorist/corrupt CEO/media bias crap going on... We're heading for either Communism and/or a Liberal Nazi Germany headed by Adolf Obama (redistribution of income - total government control of our lives)."

Posted by: hate begets hate

"hate begets hate" are you frickin retarded or what?? SSI is a "redistribution of funds" yet I hear no one complaining about that. And this terrorism you are talking about, do you know the meaning of the word? Terrorism : the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes. Kind of like the Straight people who oppose Prop 8 are trying to 'intimidate' the court system if they review the decision?? Talk about hypocrisy and contradiction!?!! Look at the meaning of words before you open your mouth.

[Jay Reedy]

I grew up in a very christian environment. My mother, her minister, her church, loved me as one of God's children. They didn't judge me for my life style. They followed the words of the Bible.
Mathew 7
1 “Do not judge so that you will not be judged. 2 “For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. 3 “Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4 “Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye? 5 “You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.
These so-called Christians who judge and point finger are only doing so to take the guilt away for their own sins.
I was taught that I would have to stand in judgment for my sins in front of God and no other. Who gave these fanatics the right to judge me? I feel they need to take a long hard look at their own lives, their actions and their hate and stop trying to be God themselves.
Do they think God isn't going to judge them for their hate?
We all answer for our own sins and do not have the right, according to God's word, to judge others. So stop trying to be God and try being a true christian instead of claiming to be.
We are all God's children, no matter what path in life we take.

[Mike]

MarkF ..... which version of the Man-Made bible are you quoting from today? There are soo many versions how do you know what is "god's" word and what is man's belief that they are using the 'name of god' to promote their own distorted views on others. The bible is full of loopholes and contradictions, I can't believe anyone believes it, it's amazing to me.

[jim mallett]

...you'd have to mentally disabled to be a log cabin republican these days. i'm enjoying watching these idiots spout their own self-hatred...meanwhile i'll fire up this joint of medical marijuana and propose a toast to roy cohn and j. edgar hoover.

[Oz]

That's great Seth. We have a self-loathing homo. Just because no one wants to marry you doesn't mean the rest deserve the rest. Thanks for voting against yourself!

[MarkF]

Jay Reedy, I respect what seems to be your love of God, but politely will say that you've only listened to about half of what Jesus said. In essence what you're saying is that anything we do is OK. If anything is OK then why did Jesus use words like adultery and fornication so much? What you're saying is that we have no idea what is a sin or what is not. Jesus did not come to earth to leave us in confusion. The moral teachings of the old testament are still in affect, the ten commandments, all of it. The externals of the Mosaic law have passed away but the moral teachings have not. By your way of thinking we have no right to say that lying is a sin, or that theft is a sin because that would be to "judge" a person. When Jesus talked about judging people he meant that only God can judge a man's soul. But we still know what behaviors are right and wrong. In John 8:11 after telling the crowd about not casting stones, he still tells the woman taken in adultery to go and sin no more. Think of this. Only a police man can give out a speeding ticket. But all of us know when we see someone who's speeding. And all of us can warn someone that speeding is dangerous. I can say that homosexuality is a sin, just as you can say that lying or blaspheming the name of God is a sin. But no one can say if any particular person will go to heaven or not. Any person may quietly repent at the moment of death. But not to know who is going to go to heaven is not the same thing as not to know what is a sin is and what isn't a sin. If God had not made it clear to us what is a sin and what isn't then no one would have a fair chance at salvation. I am afraid that what you're doing is using selections of the Bible to confuse what is a sin and what's not. No one can say with certainty if any particular person will go to heaven, but St. Paul tells us what sorts of people will not go there, and it includes people who practice homosexuality.

As far as you rather snide comments about how I am some sort of hypocrite, aren't you then as guilty as you say that I am by the way you quoted those lines of scripture back at me? Aren't you the one who's pointing a finger at me? Besides, I swore to give up my homosexual actions when I came back to the Church. This was not easy to do but it has been worth it. I am not a hypocrite. Far from it, I recognized that I had placed my own homosexuality above God and in effect had made it my god. Anyone who will not give up their own homosexuality or any other sin has made their sin into their god. (Col 3:5)

Again, only God can judge a person's soul. But God has revealed to us his ways and what is right and what is wrong. That's what's called preaching his word. But at this point I'd be sure remiss to not say the whole point of his word. And that is that we don't have to live in sin anymore. Jesus did not come here just so we'd know what's a sin and what isn't. He came here to save us. He came here so that we can join to him bodily, in the Eucharist so that we can have the grace to lead a holy life. All our sins can be forgiven and we can become right with God. We don't have to be perfect. We just have to try and to ask for his forgiveness when we fail.

[Jholmes]

MarkF (and others involved in this conversation)

Just a side note that America is a pluralistic society... Some of us aren't Christian. If, in this nation, two Hindus are allowed to sanctify their marriage before their gods, and have it recognized in Civil Court, or two Atheists are allowed to go to City Hall and have their marriage officiated completely without mention of God, and the our society allows it, then why should we hypocritically base this decision on a particular religious tradition?

[john]

Wow, I'm surprised when I read articles like this at how many gays are against gay marriage. If you're going to hate yourself, why don't you go do it someplace so we don't have to deal with you or hear you.

People talk about the recklessness of gays' sex lives. Well if you were at all observant in life, you would realize that straights are just as reckless. It's not just a "gay" phenomenon to be irresponsible, promiscuous, etc.

Furthermore, marriage is not an invention of the Christian Church. It existed before Christianity, and so bible-thumping Christians shouldn't be allowed to dictate who does and doesn't marry.

And since when did it become okay for the majority to decide what is lawful for a minority? Apparently the Constitution only protects people if they fit into the mold of the majority. And this isn't a matter of people not wanting to have to deal with gays marrying, it's about a basic human right being respected to be afforded the same legal protections provided to married couples.

The religious morons should stop fighting trivial battles and worry about real problems in this society. Then maybe America wouldn't be so screwed up!

[J]

These anti same sex marriage propositions that seem to be all the rage these days are among the most immoral pieces of legislation passed in modern times. It is nothing but pure discrimination plain and simple. Just because a majority does not agree with a particular minority, doesn't make it right or moral for the majority to discriminate or take away rights from the minority. Passage of Prop 8 was not an example of democracy but it was an example of tyranny.

[stuart]

The reason the Jesus Freaks spread the hatred of Jesus Christ and don't practice what they preach is because it's a big fairy tale used to brainwash people to gain control over them and take their money.

[Interlingua]

The article posted above by by Kilian Melloy on Nepal says that "marriage equality or its near equivalent exists in South Korea". WRONG!!! Four years ago, one political party in South Korea filed suit to allow such marriages in one city. South Korea most emphatically does NOT have marriage equality.

However wrote this needs to do more research and be a far more careful writer.

It should be emphasized that it does not have laws that discriminate against gays (nor laws that prohibit such discrimination).

[zarxo]

Dualism: the concept of ethics versus morality. It is ethical to give "this" right" to the homosexuals; however, the court "may" try to sear in morality as its decisive framework for finalazing their judgement.

What is most interesting is socially, to be gay, seems to be very accepted in California, a culture positve acknowledgement of its own values that "it," the state, posseses now. Here we have morality and ethics agreeing, which should be enough "evidence" that the Supreme Court needs to give a reasonable and fair answer.

The California Supreme Court does not have the right (as self evident) to rule for "maximum benefit" for a limited number of people in the state because this conflicts with "just distribution of benefits" to all people--all adults have the right to marry--isn't this enough?

Indeed, it is possible that "the 'greatest good' principle (Socrates suffered because of this principle)could justify the majority in depriving the minority of their rights--or maybe their lives" (Plato "Apology" and Hunter, Hunt, Okholm, Safford, Invitation to Philosophy, 169).

[zarxo]

--or we all could just fine our own "Bill Ayers!"

If its good enough for our President then its good enough for the queers.

[Jonathan]

For a long time I've stayed out of this because I feel marriage isn't my issue; the GLBT has to start focusing on starting from the ground up and learning how to have relationships that last more than six months rather than going straight to the top and forcing society to accept our marriages. But then I started looking around me, particularly at one group of people in particular.

Black men and white women. The biggest sham when it comes to relationships. He uses her til there's nothing left. He beats the shit out of her, maxes her credit cards, drives her car, steals everything, gets her pregnant and then leaves. Yet society seems to have no problem with this arrangement, relationship, marriage, whatever you call it. Yet 80% of these couplings seem to be this scenario - almost every woman who comes through our ER in a domestic violence case - that looks so bad that I would have thought she was in a car accident - is yet another white woman beaten senseless by some black guy who not only beat her up, but beats up her kids, and sometimes even beat her to the point where she miscarried. Uh, redneck Bubba guys, where's the outrage? Is it okay to go after queers because we don't have the reputation for beating the shit out of people or carrying guns? :Why are you targeting gay men who typically have quiet, respectable relationships (when we can even find one that lasts) we stay the hell out of people's way, we respect the law, and we are respectful citizens who pay taxes to support these kids that these women bear that will only end up in prison or the streets, so that we can support them for a lifetime - and at the same time be badmouthed by their congregations where marriage and fathers day is such a lost concept that nobody can help but not snicker at the idea.

I am so sick and tired of being scapegoated as being a bad person from a bad group in society when the real people who have cost taxpayers billions of dollars and ruined central urban areas in this country are given respect out of one thing and one thing only: the wrath of physical violence. Gay men are such passive wimps that of course we are easy targets - 9 year old girls are more intimidating. We have to stop being so afraid of getting our hands dirty, or going to jail, or god forbid we get our names written up in the newspaper because we took part in civil rights movements. We can't let our white collar jobs and our expensive toys at risk for standing up for our rights.

And that's why, gay men, nothing will ever change. We don't give a shit about other gay men. We willingly and knowingly spread around a deadly virus for 30 years because we had no respect for the health or life of other gay men. We still don't care about ourselves just by looking at the shelf life of our relationships. You want to get married? Our divorce rate will be over 90%! The majority of us have to learn how to get out of the goddamn house first and date other gay people without being embarrassed to be seen in public together! We are decades away from successful marriage stories for the majority of our community. We still have a lot of work to do on suicide, drug and alcohol use, the shitty way we treat other gay men, the lack of support we have for each other, and the selfish, money grabbing white collar gays that only care about what they can get for themselves and screw everyone else's happiness. Society needs to reevaluate their hypocracy, but gay men need to examine their own shitty behavior towards other gay men as well. Otherwise we are going to be singing this same song for the rest of our lives.

[MarkF]

Jholmes, yes this is a secular country. But notice that I was not speaking against same-sex marriage there but against homosexuality in general. I can make the secular case against same-sex marriage but I chose not to.

And from John we get the usual Soviet idea of freedom, we are free to agree with the dictatorship, "...why don't you go do it someplace so we don't have to deal with you or hear you." Hey I see that the communist Maoist junta in poor Nepal has unilaterally imposed homosexual marriage on this traditional religious country. Which shows two things - one that atheistic communists love homosexuality, and secondly that they know that the way to destroy a nation's goodness, which is always the enemy of communism, is to corrupt its morals with things like homosexuality.

And, "And since when did it become okay for the majority to decide what is lawful for a minority?" every election, that's since when.

Since the election of the Secular Messiah, he's promised to make me pay with my taxes for the murder of the unborn innocents overseas. I'd say my rights and the rights of the unborn have been trampled upon a lot more by this.

People... is it worth it to be at war with God over your sexual license? God is your Father and he loves us all... but he doesn't want us to live this way...love between the same sex is fine, as long as it's love that doesn't demean the person through inappropriate sexual lusts. Real love does what's best for the person. Look, I know all about this. I'm struggling right now with someone I love who I can no longer be sexual with because I see what it does to him and to me - it degrades him as a man. Even if he wants it and even if I'm tempted, I can't put my needs above what's good for him.

[Jed]

I applaud Seth and Mark F. in their Christian belief. I wanted to add the true Christians of the Judeo-Christian faith do not or should not "hate" anyone, but disapprove of one's sin(s)that are against God's will. In this case, the majority (Christians or not)wants to keep marriage the same as before, a union between one man and one woman.

As for john's statement "marriage is not an invention of the Christian Church. It existed before Christianity . . " Sounds to me you may have never read the first chapter of Genesis. If this universe and the first human beings (Adam and Eve, not Steve) were created by God within the first seven days (approx. 6,500 years ago), how can marriage be BEFORE Christianity? Secondly, there's a reason a pastor is quoting the wedding vows from a Bible (God's words) during a wedding ceremony between a man and a woman (God's law).

Being a gay man, I too don't believe in the gay marriage issue. Any pastor and/or church that condones and officiates gay marriages is not a true follower of Christ! That pastor is leading his/her congregation astray. And I wish the gays would stop saying they are second-class citizens, and their civil rights are be trampled. Put a band-aid on your wounds, and get over yourselves! The majority has spoken, so live with it! There are much more important issues in this country to deal with than listen to the gays' petty agendas. You are not second-class citizens only if you want to go around labeling yourselves as such.

SOLUTIONS: Have your commitment ceremonies, but you will NEVER be married in the eyes of God. If you want your partner to make your life-threatening decisions, create a living will. Who gets your property, put it in your will. You both want health insurance, then each of you get jobs that offer health benefits! Don't make it harder than it is.

[MarkF]

Seth,

Thanks! But I am a little curious why you still call yourself "gay?" I'm Catholic and I've adopted the terms that the Church uses. I say that I'm someone with same-sex attraction. The biggest lie is the adoption of the "gay" identity when in reality it is a behavior. But it's a political strategy because you don't grant special rights to behaviors. I'm curious about your situation, where you are at and how you came to be there. Looking back there are so many points I can see where I was making the break, even when I didn't realize it.

[madan]

"FInally Nepal Did It,well being a nepali citizen I am proud and happy about it.In nepal people never have problem with it.A guy can walk hand in hand with another guy and They normally sleep together ,with arm wrapped around each other as it was a century old tradition and they are called(Mit) in Nepali language,They are accepted and treated with great respect...and Nobody says that They are gay...May be its one of the flexible society in the world...I never have problem with being gay In back Home...like I had here in US.My Bf use to call me every night and My Dad used to pick up the phone and used to joke that your Bf was calling ...and there is another century old tradition called"maruni" where a guy dressed as a girl and try to seduce a guy with seductive dance,,The more he can act girly and seductive the more he get respect...so Bottom line is that gays are always accepted in Nepali society from the very beginning ..Well I really appreciate the effort made By sunil Pant...

[Lux Dreaming]

Jed, Mark F, Seth.....sad that you've all drunk too much Kool-Aid....you are part of the problem...NOT the solution...and since this country is NOT a theocracy, I'll kindly ask you to keep your Jesus speak OFF OF MY CIVIL RIGHTS!!! Period...books have been read, and the library is closed. (and BTW I don't know what sad circles you bitches run in....all of my gay male friends have been together for at least a decade or more, and are completely well adjusted....some of us actually DO only come to Gay.Com for the news...and to see what ther rest of you nutjobs are on about...maybe if you got out of the closet a tad more, you wouldn't all feel so compelled to hang out in the chat rooms that you claim you're so disgusted by...then again...maybe not).

[MarkF]

Perhaps this is what happens when you pray to demons. Demons will trick people and they want nothing more than for humans to act like animals. But somehow I don't really believe any of this propaganda is true.

[papageno49]

Oh Mark F. For a admittedly straight person, you spend WAY to much time at gay.com. After reading all your postings, I have to say that you are just an ol' bigot. I have known many like you, unfortunately. You justify your hatred of a whole group of people using the scriptures. There is no talking to you. Your thinking is irrational. You have continually vomited up the same dreary, hateful pap that I have come to expect from the religious right.

Where do you people get off telling people how to be moral, imposing your twisted, narrow views on others??? I have spent thirty years fighting you and your ilk. It would interest you to learn that this is a pluralistic society. We tolerate many beliefs at once. Not one of you is a real Christian. I am not one and I am so glad.

I have been gay all my life. I was not abused. I had a normal, upper middle class upbringing and during the fifties...that most intolerant of decades. I live a normal life now. My life would be much happier if all of you went far away. You cause more misery and hurt to our way of life than we gay people ever will.

My goal is for you never to get your way. For you never to take over the country the way you want. I will continue to fight you and all your bigoted, hateful bretheren with all resources at my disposal.

Get a grip, Mark F. Allow a little love into your heart for a change, a little empathy..eeven thought I know it's against your religion.

And go irritate some other website.

[TonyFrom TX]

First you have these right-wing nuts that would just as easily piss their pants should they ever look upon the all Mighty as they would TRULY follow his teachings.

Now lets take a look at marriage. To marry was something done out of duty to family and ones need to propagate his seed. Not for taxes, or money or any of the rights that St8 couples have today. It was an ENTIRELY Church driven union of two people, that in most cases hadn't even met. If we have TRUE seperation of Church and State what should it matter who marries whom.

I am a type one Diabetic, should I call my straight friends and ask them if it is moral and gods will that I take my daily injection of insulin? Maybe I should have them approve my cloths for the day. I wouldn't want to offend God because my socks down match my boxers. Or burn in the firey lake because I ate fish on the wrong day or the week. Should I next have the State tell me where I can work, Maybe they can help my find a parking place? I was constipated last month, should I have gotten someones athorization before I took that laxitive? I'm Sorry I voted this month and didn't get permission should I report someplace to be placed under arrest for using my free will? I'm thinking of painting the walls in my house, which branch of the government should I contact to have that OK'ed?

I am 35 years old and been with the same man for 14 years since we meet our first day of college. We share the ups and down of every Hetero couple we know. Should we not be allowed to share the same tax benifits? Should he not be allowed to deside what happens to my body, should I drop dead tomorrow? Shouldn't he be allowed to visit and grieve should I have to be admited to the hospital? We are a professional couple and lord knows we pay more than our fair share of taxes. Yet we can't file together and share none of the benifits that those taxes SHOULD provide.

There is a line of whats right and whats fair. If you don't look at the Bible in it's intended context you will never truely get anything from it. 20 people can read the exact same chapter in the Bible and you'll get 20 different meanings of the same chapter. And thats not to say that what one believes they have read is any less true than what the others have read it's just different.

Hate is Hate, if God truely is out there, is hate the message he would want his followers to be spreading.

[MarkF]

OK, what a set of contradictions there..
I never said I’m straight. In fact many times I told my story.
“hatred of a whole group of people” – Umm no, because homosexuality is a behavior. It’s something that is done, not something you are. This is the big lie in the homosexualist world.
Hate = anything that dares to contradict the pagan god of homosexuality
You say you “fight” Christians, yet you also claim to be pluralistic. Be honest. This is a spiritual war, as its always been. St. Paul warns us about what homosexual s are like in Romans 1:29-31, “…all manner of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity, they are gossips,
slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.”
“the fifties...that most intolerant of decades” Yes, when people got married for life and didn’t get divorced, when we didn’t kill millions of the innocent in the womb, when half the population wasn’t in psychotherapy, when teenagers weren’t hyper-sexualized, when Hollywood helped the county instead of attacking its morality, when there was no pornography, when we didn’t have near the drug problem we have now, when kids had two parents, one of each sex, before promiscuity had unleashed an epidemic of incurable, deadly diseases. Tolerance = in the homosexual world refers only the adoration of homosexuality above all other things. The world can go to hell as long as homosexuality is worshipped.
“misery and hurt to our way of life” – this is called projection. The misery comes from the reality of living a death dealing, emasculating and degrading life. And any criticism must be silenced at all costs. All in the name of Soviet style “freedom.”
The devil knows the name of Jesus and what he can do to him. Homosexuals know who their enemy is too. As you said, it’s a fight. But be honest with people – tell them up front that your enemy is Christianity. Lets here you be brave about that in public. Tell them how you’re not a Christian and that you’re glad that you’re not. I dare you to say that in public. Tell the world how you hate Christianity. Admit how you want to radically change the building block of society.
And Tony, you can do what you want legally. But you can’t get married. Period. You can get lawyers to draw up all the things you want to do, hospital visit, all the rest. But you can’t get married and then ram it down the throats of other people kids in the public schools as they do in Massachusetts.

[Lux Dreaming]

You DUMBFUCK!!!! HOW DARE you desecrate Paganism by declaring that Homosexuality is indicative of a singular religion!!! FOR SHAME!!!!!!!

Mark F...this is only to you....you are obviously embroiled in some kind of self flaggelation...that's GREAT!!! (please hit yourself 100 times on my behalf...don't worry..I don't mind)...NOW...for the rest of the bile you spit forth here, know this...this again is NOT a Theocracy...to wit, if ANY specific brand of organized religion could be PROVED to be true (christian, hindu, buddhist, whatever) then this discussion would be moot...it would be like trying to disprove the fact that on a clear day the Earth's sky "reads" blue....you see where I'm going...well, maybe not...since you CANNOT PROVE that your biblical god exists, and I DO pay more taxes than you probably EARN in a year...keep your fiscal fucking mouth OUT of my CIVIL rights........I'm not sure how much clearer I can be with that! As for your whole "Gay = death sadness thing"....get the fuck over it..or move to someplace that isn't the "cesspot" you claim homosexuality to be. Peace Out!

[Lost in Chicago...]

LUX RULES!!!! the only one of the bunch that makes any sense.... -shakes head-

[Johns Island Guy]

Currently, divorce, pre-marital sex and infidelity are "outlawed" by some churches and other moral compasses. Thank God the punishment when we do these things has lessened a bit. It used to be that women were stoned to death if they had sex before marriage. Then we called them sluts. Now we gossip about them and shake our heads. So, there is some progress there. Where do we go from here? We still see an ocassional primitive murder by some jealous O'Jay type if women aren't acting the way we want. While we think to ourselves the woman deserved it, we don't always allow it. Men have almost always gotten away with pre-marital sex because "boys will be boys." It's okay if Skippy pops the cheerleader because he's young, God will forgive him, etc. If a man makes a pass at another man though, it's okay for him to be murdered, but we're slowly starting to think that might be wrong too. So, we've got a little bit of work to do. We are all still pretty dumb in many ways. How on earth can we enforce our morality on other people without becoming a more occupied territory than we already are? How can we enforce what is already illegal in states such as certain sexual positions? How about a moral civil war? Then we can have adults telling other adults who they can love, who they can marry, etc. until we start killing each other even more! We can try that whole fixed marriages thing again. Straight people didn't like that very much though. Gay people don't like it either. Duh. If we haven't grown up that much since the days when no kind of sex was discussed, maybe we need these dumb conflicts of interest to get honest and real. Maybe we need to balk more about gay people so people can just put the focus back on their own sex problems. There are still some people who think that sex of any kind is dirty and wrong. If we still can't celebrate the joy of sex, openly talk about how truly beautiful a gift it is from God, not try to force our children's or other's sexual identity, well, we can at least criticize what we think is wrong for now. What is wrong though is usually the way other people are doing it! For now, we can judge and condemn others all we want. We can argue about how next gay people will be wanting our children to have sex with our pets. We can take comfort we know God's will and use it to hate others just like the terrorists who killed thousands in the name of Allah. When the dust settles, we get to do what we could have done all along: take our sexual freedom as each of us understand it for ourselves. Accept ourselves and our own sexuality for what is natural for ourselves. Let others decide for themselves what is natural for them. Find our own interpretation of God without forcing it on others and let others have their interpretation. Love ourselves and others instead of hate. Let gays get married if they want without projecting our own problems onto them and getting in their way so everyone can be equal and practice religious freedom which is what all us hypocrites brag about being. Oh! America is Number One! Basically we just need to shut up grow up. God bless us all!

[Blah]

Are you serious about the headline? Threats? Well, What about the threats the militant gay activists have made against any group of people who "may have" contributed money to the Proposition 8 campaign. Let's be fair here. Those threats (and actions) have cast two black eyes on the rest of us who think there are better ways to gain acceptance from our communities.

[MarkF]

I didn't say that homosexuality was only found in paganism. I said that homosexuality becomes the god that people worship.

I'm just saying that God is life and freedom from all the things that bind us and hurt us. That's all that God has been saying to us since Abraham. And Jesus came here to die for us so that we can live, and that new life starts here on earth.

Almost all the people on here have said that they are estranged from God, and if we can be honest, it is because of the issue of homosexuality largely. That's sad but it doesn't have to be that way. I really mean that - that's very sad that people are turning themselves away from God. But he's still there for us, no matter what we do. Anything can be made into a pagan god - money, food, drugs, career, possessions, sex, anything almost. But none of it loves us back.

And all of you out there, you all deserve better than this way of life...think of when you were younger and what you thought you would get out of it...then look around and be charitable with yourself and realize that you were lied to, that this life does not deliver what it promises. Jesus is always there for us, but he wants us to try to get past things like this and he'll give you the strength to do it, even if it seems impossible.

[Lux Dreaming]

Um, actually Mark F, my life is pretty close to perfect...I have a husband whom I've been lucky enough to spend nearly half my life with. I have a loving family who supports and loves me and my husband. I have a very fulfilling career, great friends, and my health. I also find that all of these things are evidence of a creator who has blessed me, not damned me. Just because I don't call god "Jesus" or "Allah" or "Budha", does not mean I don't believe in god's existence. God is IN everything...indeed, god IS everything, which is to say balance. That's something christianity certainly lacks...in fact many "organized religions" lack it, and that's really the problem for a lot of people, not just gay people. They're not shying or turning away from a "god", just your "god", as it is housed in a religion that has far too many contradictions. A wise man once said...and this really rings true..."Philosophy is questions that may not be answered...Religion is answers that may not be questioned".
Finally, to beat a dead horse, this country is NOT a theocracy, so until it becomes one, you really shouldn't continue trying to cram your religion into my civil existence with mean spirited legislation that seeks nothing more than to destroy rather than celebrate life and love. Period.