Gay Marriage: The Next Civil War?

First Vermont allowed civil unions for gay couples. Then Massachusetts legalized same-sex marriage. California followed (but we know what happened there; stay tuned for more), as did Connecticut and Iowa, and then -- oh, wait -- Vermont ended up going all the way, offering full marriage to same-sex couples. Illinois has a civil union bill on the legislative ballot, and New York Gov. David Paterson is pushing to give gay couples the same marriage rights as straight couples in his state. Lawmakers in Maine, New Hampshire and New Jersey are considering the same for their residents. Washington D.C.'s lawmakers have moved to recognize gay marriages performed in other states (a final legislative vote will take place on May 5).

What's interesting, but not unexpected, is that all the states granting marriage rights to gay couples are in the North. Even the states that recognize civil unions or domestic partnerships, such as Washington and Oregon, are in the North. Do we think this trend will start to move below the Mason-Dixon line, or is that where state legislators will, well, draw the line? Could gay marriage be the new civil war in our country?

When California's Prop 8 passed in November, taking away same-sex marriage rights that had been granted by the California Supreme Court, many people declared that "Gay is the New Black." Activists across the board drew comparisons between current gay struggles and the African-American Civil Rights Movement. Just as black people were once denied certain rights -- including the ability to marry a white person -- many gay couples feel they are facing similar discrimination today.

Don't get me wrong -- in no way am I saying that gay marriage and the African-American Civil Rights Movement are equally weighted; black people in America historically have had it much worse, but similarities do exist. Black people were targets of hate, sometimes just for looking the wrong way at a white person. Gay people have been targeted, sometimes just for dressing differently or coming out of a gay bar. But on the whole, the black struggle for freedom and equality has been far more difficult. However, that doesn't mean gay people should be treated as second-class citizens and denied the same rights as everyone else in America.

We have to wonder what would happen if a federal gay-marriage bill were passed (having the United States join Spain, Canada, South Africa, Belgium, the Netherlands, Norway and Sweden in marriage equality). Would it cause a new civil war? Would it bring people out into the streets demanding that their state secede from the Union?

Likely not. But it is interesting that all the states that have come out thus far on the side of gay marriage are up North. I would love to see a Southern state, say Louisiana, be bold enough to become the next Iowa. Think it'll happen? Doubtful, but it's nice to dream.

(Image courtesy of Getty)

Comments

[the_real_sweedie]

I would say that it's very similar to the civil rights movement. Sure we haven't had it as bad as black people, but we've still had it pretty bad throughout history, especially if you're not only looking at the U.S. And the fact that we don't have the same rights as everyone else is a big similarity.

I doubt that this will spark a new civil war though, I think that will happen anyway just out of the huge hatred between the different political sides in this country.

[Brahmms]

For the record, the American Civil War was not fought over slavery. Slavery was one (big) issue out of many issues most of which were just specific disputes over states' rights. However, these days people don't identify with their states as much as they used to. Had you asked many of our founding fathers to what country they belonged, they would have named what we call their states. Today people see themselves as Americans and happen to live in a particular state. So federal legislation seems less likely to start a civil war today than about 140 years ago.

[Nightbird]

What a wonderful question you have posed here Ari Bendersky, and it is one that had badly been needed to be asked. As a Southerner, this is one of the biggest things that causes me shame, and it is one that is clearly linked to what most people choose not to discuss: Religion. In the South, Religion has taken on fanatical new highs, and churches now regularly raise the bar on hatred by not only preaching Homosexuality is wrong, (as they always have) but that parishioners must actively seek to eliminate the "Gay Agenda" from our midst. This includes everything from shunning family members who "choose" this "lifestyle", to the firing on openly gay teachers because they are "recruiting" children to join the "Gay Brigade". It is about time people understand just how poisonous Religion has become in the south, and how people are using Jesus and The Bible as an excuse to discriminate, hate, and even kill members of the Gay Community. We need to take on these religious leaders, pastors, ministers and preachers head on, because if they are allowed to continually poison their parishioners minds to hate gays, and then those parishioners teach these hateful ideas to their children, the cycle will never end. While I wholeheartedly believe in religious freedom, even though I myself am a Secular person, I do believe the Government can play a decisive role in not allowing church's or places of worship to continue to receive the Non-Profit tax status they enjoy if they continue to disseminate these messages of hate and intolerance that are affecting gay people every single day of their lives, whether they realize it or not, by the lack of opportunities, freedoms and equal civil liberties. We pay our taxes just like everybody else, so we should enjoy the same liberties, opportunities and benefits our Heterosexual counterparts enjoy and partake in. Religion has no place in Government, and in the South, we need to "preach" this message and "convert" more than a few people just like the church has so successfully done.

[Pissed Off]

You CANNOT compare the gay rights struggle to the struggle to abolish slavery. There is no comparison. Gay people aren't chained in a field working under the sun, they're sipping lattes and bitching about the last Ugly Betty episode.

I'm sorry, but the whole gay is the new Black thing just disgusts me.

[tomriddlesmate]

This tough economy has had me doing job searches across the country. I have noticed that discrimination policies in northern and western cities have included sexual orientation as a protected class...not so in southern cities.

[Ray]

where do you guys get this crap? in fact, where do they find these writers? this is but one more babbling bunch of nonsense in a long line of other such, less thought out nonsense stories to be posted on this site. as late as the 1950s, almost half of the states had miscegenation laws. while the original statutes were directed wholly against black-white unions, the legislation had extended to unions between whites and Mongolians, Malayans, Mulattos, and Native Americans. prejudice knows no geographical boundaries. who was it again who was given the most credit for helping to pass proposition 8 in california? wasn't it a religious group of people, and since when did california become part of the South. please research your subject before writing this garbage. you are embarrasing yourselves.

[DD]

As unpopular as Bush was, he hit the nail on the head with this matter.

This is a state issue and it should be left up to the states. What's good for Vermont may not be good for Alabama.

We as fags should respect that. If you live in say Texas and want to marry, MOVE and quit your bitching.

Hell, that's why so many blacks live in inner cities. How many negros do you see living in rural areas....even right here in Iowa.

This country is headed in the wrong direction on so many fronts, and in some respects, it's no longer headed there but it IS THERE.

The next police state behind the UK? You bet! We're already there.

[Rain City Blues]

Civil War? Let's not hyperbolize here.

Has it occurred to you yet that some of the states you mention as supporting GLBT unions weren't in the US at the time of the Civil War (Oregon and Washington)? Has it also occurred to you that the federal government is considerably more powerful than it was in 1860, that we now maintain a standing army (we didn't before WW2) larger than any other country in the world?

Armed rebellion would last about as long as Waco did.

Also, we're not slaves. Slavery was some serious fucked up shit-way more fucked up than lacking marriage and adoption rights or DADT. Comparing not being able to marry to having to eat dirt and work for free, with some asshole on horseback pointing a rifle at me if I try to leave and some other asshole beating me with a bullwhip, you know, you're making what the slaves had to endure sound so trivial. This is why heterosexual Blacks hate us. Yeah, sure religion plays a role here, but mostly, we kinda spit on their ancestors when we try to compare our problems to the problems their ancestors faced.

And I'm sorry, but our struggle is not the same as what African-Americans had to go through. We've got it bad, but they had it really bad. Much worse than we do now. I got to go to college. I can come and go as I please. Nobody tried to keep me illiterate, I can vote, and there are politicians at the federal level that will discuss GLBT rights. After Lincoln ended slavery, it was another hundred years before Black people could vote without having to fear for their lives.

This is not to say its easy being gay in America-the law doesn't recognize us as equals yet, there's violence perpetrated against us nationwide, we can only marry in four states. But this isn't slavery.

And this isn't the Civil; war, either

[DisgustedWithStupidIgnorantGaysWorkingAgainstUs]

DD, it's gay's like you that enable all these right wing idiots to keep fucking with our lives. How INCREDIBLY STUPID you were to suggest that we should leave it all to the states. If we had left slavery to all the states, we would still have slaves -and somehow I get the feeling that your dumb redneck ass would be just fine with that too. EQUALITY is not a "voting issue" you dumbass, it is something that should be made law across the board. Who gives a fuck if dumbass, ignorant rednecks don't like it? Their asses will get used to it. Most people don't like speeding laws, taxes or other things that are law, but we get used to it for the better good. I am so fucking sick and tired of gays like you that are working against us, who don't give a shit about equality or rights because as long as you get some dick or ass on the side, then that's good enough for you. Fuck the fact that you can't marry who you love, can't be put on your partners federal medical benefit plan or have rights to your partners social security benefits, among the many things that are denied gay people. Your dumbass doesn't care about the IMPORTANT shit like that now does it? You only care that you can fuck whom you want in secret. People like you totally disgust me, and you need to either get educated about civil rights and equality or just shut the fuck up already.

[matt281988]

must not be up to date on the south eh? well in sc we now have anti discrimination in housing and employment that not only includes sexual orientation, but ALSO GENDER IDENTITY, and remember sweetie SC is where the civil war started. and if you wanna get racial....before the mason dixon line......NYC had the 2nd highest number of slaves per capita than other city besides Charleston, which you'll throw back in my face, but sweetie NYC is way up there in the North....so next time do you homework

[Anon]

I wish we lived in a civilized place like the UK, France or Canada! At least their, unlike the fucked up USA, people don't have to choose between paying their medical bills or buying food. At least their, people aren't being shot up in the streets and the murder rate isn't sky high like it is in this fucked up country because we have so many idiots preaching about "gun rights" and then crying when some teenager rapes and shoots their daughter because it was so easy for them to obtain all these guns that the gun rights nuts wanted available. I am so ashamed of being American, because this is no longer "the greatest country in the world", it is the stupidest one that hurts it's own people and where only the wealthy or ignorant are truly happy. Thank goodness we FINALLY elected a decent man for President who is trying to make things right, even though all these republican nuts are trying to kill him.

It is going to take a strong President and Congress to finally pass a FEDERAL LAW giving us all the rights we deserve. And I encourage EVERYONE to write President Obama and your political leaders and urge them to make and pass such a law. As someone else stated before, we pay our damn taxes, so we should have the same rights. Write your political leaders and urge them to do this NOW! If we all would just ban together, instead of watching porn all day or stupid tv shows, we can finally get something done!

[Bryan]

The point of comparison between the civil rights struggles of blacks and of gays is simply the common thread of being held back from equal treatment because of minority status. The struggles of blacks are not to be overlooked, but let's also not get so caught up in comparing wounds that we forget the tie that binds us as minorities. As an African-American and a homosexual, I think it's just about that simple.

[hybridlover]

I'm sorry but the only reason why gays don't have it as bad as blacks back during the civil rights movement is because a person can hide one's gayness by simply not telling someone about it... a black person however cannot hide the fact that he's black. Would slavery have existed for gay people if there were a big neon sign on gay people's heads? I don't know...but I do think that gay people would be subject to just as many hate crimes that blacks suffered through during the civil rights movement if it were.

[Paul Harris]

I moved to Arkansas 7 months ago and welcome the "challenge" of trying to educate. I whole-heartedly agree with Nightbird's posting above. Registered non-profit groups such as the American Family Association certainly must spend more than 20% of their funds on politics as I receive a continual stream of their messages attacking gays and anything considered liberal. Unless these folks are investigated by the IRS they will continue using your tax dollars to fight against your rights.

Also I was shocked to discover that there is no voters information pamphlet automatically sent to all voters in Arkansas so unlike California people don't get to read the arguments for and against propositions followed by rebuttals. We can only have an effective democracy if the voters are educated.

Here was my little part published 2 days ago. I encourage you all to not fight amongst ourselves but put our energy into educating those who need it most.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/opinion/article.aspx?subjectid=62&articleid=20090415_7_X_spanc21612&archive=yes

[corrective_unconscious]

>"We as fags should respect that. If you live in say Texas and want to marry, MOVE and quit your bitching....Hell, that's why so many blacks live in inner cities. How many negros do you see living in rural areas....even right here in Iowa."

Hey, you don't get to hear the word, "negros" [sic] much these days! Yeehaw, redneck Cletus!

Marriage confers federal rights with respect to taxes, social security and about 1,000 other rights. One things about those largely backward, homophobic Buybull states is that they're gonna have more severe droughts sooner than the rest of the country, so the suggestion to simply move to a less homophobic state (likely a wetter one,) is probably best followed sooner rather than later.

[Laun]

This is not a civil war issue. This is a civilized domestic civil union issue. However, not every marriage union is civil.

[Brandon]

First off, I do not think any sensible person would believe a civil war would be fought over an issue like this. That's absurd. But one can draw parallels. I live in Maryland, arguably the first "Southern state" below the Mason-Dixon. And let me tell you that not all that much has changed as far as mindset since the Civil War. This state has absolutely divided sympathies on the gay marriage issue, just as it had divided Confederate - Union sympathies in the 1860s. Because of transplants from the north, this state is more "northern" than the past, but its definitely not the north. Once Maryland has been swayed to enforce marriage equality, that will be when we see some real tension start to boil. Mark my words, once this state introduces gay marriage - get ready for a fight to try and sway the rest of Dixie. Not to be pessimistic, but I don't think gay marriage will win out in the South at least for another decade... I don't think its something we should get discouraged over when we realize it, because it is to be expected. But as with segregation, it will be sorted out in due time. Justice will prevail : )

[L. Bass]

You CAN compare the civil rights struggle of blacks with the civil rights struggles of gays. A comparison doesn't mean that it's EXACTLY the same but there are some similarities. One does not choose to black, just as one does not choose to be gay; and just because someone is born a certain a way doesn't give people the right to discriminate against them. Slavery was abolished as well as Jim Crow laws because they were unconstitutional. If all men are truly created equal then this shouldn't be an issue. We should all receive the same rights and enjoy the same freedoms, despite cultural or social differences. And as far as leaving these issues up to the states, if they can't abide by the constitution (the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment)then the federal government has to step in at some point and do it for them. Majority only rules in this country when the outcome is fair, or in this case constitutional. And since the majority wants to curtail the rights of American citizens then the federal government has the obligation to resolve the issue. This is NOT a religious issue, that's why we have freedom of religion in this country. If you don't want gays to marry then don't marry them in your church. But to deny them the right completely is a mockery of the principles our founding fathers based this democracy on.

[zarxo]

No money involved, nope, nothing would change. Politicians have used "us" as a tool for their own tools. It has never been about fairness, just expediency.

There are gay red-necks, gay GOP, gay blacks, gay church people, gay cops, gay military, and I would guess to say that 10% of the population is gay.

With the economy as lousy as it is, you could pass anything and not get a shrug, but once more taxes come, I'll be you see action.

[Tom]

"But on the whole, the black struggle for freedom and equality has been far more difficult." WHAT??? Gays have been fighting for their right to simply exist for thousands of years! Check history if you think otherwise. Blacks were sold INTO slavery by their OWN leaders in Africa and stolen by leaders of other tribes due to their greed for precious stones.

The 200+ struggle for blacks has been an ugly one, but as with the struggle for civil rights for gays, it has been hampered by their own behavior and inability to work together. Furthermore, women have been fighting as long as if not longer than gays for THEIR rights.

Civil rights is not a BLACK think - it is a human thing and I for one am tired of people comparing the black civil rights movement to any others as more important or even pre-emptory to other movements.

Slavery in this country did NOT begin with blacks but with white slaves. And today slavery still exists in other parts of the world as it had existed in AFRICA long before blacks were brought here.

[Tom]

http://www.revisionisthistory.org/forgottenslaves.html

Whoever it was who wrote the above article ought to take a few months off from writing and do some hardcore research before pandering to misconceptions about civil rights. I am all for total equality for everyone, but I am not one to silently sit by while ANY one group takes an attitude towards another. And I also see no need to be apologetic and condescending in tone when comparing one civil rights fight to another.

[ohdannyboy81]

I'm sorry but it IS the new "Black movement". Gay people HAVE been killed just for looking a certain way, talking a certain way, acting a certain way, or looking at people a certain way.

CA made a mistake. Most states that have made strides in human rights, DON'T involve the vote of the MAJORITY, to determine the rights of the MINORITY. If that was the case, people might still own slaves in this country, to be completely honest.

What makes this all so much worse, is that we have our first African American president. And according to polls, that may very well be the reason Prop 8 passed. Because that election drove African Americans to the polls, and they overwhelmingly voted against gay marriage.

So, not only is this issue a fight against the usual suspects, its a fight against "the most suppressed people in this country ever". Can we win?

[oldkingtroll]

I'm amazed that a blog asking IF there might be Civil War which -- you find out wayyyy down the article -- is predicated on IF the federal government passes legislation legalizing gay marriage could be taken seriously. At the same time that this post was being written, the dumb-jerk governor of Texas gets quoted as saying he "understands" why "some people might wish to secede" over the national debt and taxes (the debt and taxes being real things not stuff from the wonderful world of "IF") and the blogosphere goes haywire.

Guys, aren't there other more real things to deal with? The fact that an 11 year old committed suicide because his school ignored his mother's please to stop his being bullied? Or jobs for those among us who are unemployed, our own local struggles for equality, and the like?

[Anonymous]

I don't see why it is so difficult to compare the Black Movement and the Gay Movement. Yes, Black people had to go through slavery and harsh treatment. However, were gay people not a target of the Holocaust? Or do they just not teach that in schools anymore? Gay people have gone through discrimination for ages. There have been so many killings throughout the world just because someone is gay. People have been tortured, as well. Sure, if you look at just America, gay people haven't had it as bad. I, however, prefer to look at things on a larger scale. A rights movement is a rights movement in my mind. It's not who suffered worse than the other. When a group of people are being denied their rights, it is the people's job to fix that. I was for rights for Black people, and I'm for this, too.

[Ltdumbear]

I'm sorry...could somebody please explain to me exactly what 'rights' that homosexuals DON'T already have, that they are SO willing to go to WAR over, to EARN ? ? ? WHY is this issue SO IMPORTANT to you all ? There is MORE TO LIFE than 'ensuring' that everybody and thier SISTER knows that you're 'gay' and you're LEGALLY MARRIED to another gay person. What is the OBSCESSION here people ?

[Ltdumbear]

To:

DisgustedWithStupidIgnorantGaysWorkingAgainstUs

You are a two-faced lier, and it's a shame I did'nt bother to read through ALL the postings up above, before putting down my previous thoughts.

Yes I'm sure you'd just be happier'n a pig in it's own S*** to FINALLY be able to 'Marry the One you Truly LOVE', yadda, yadda, yadda...

..but me'thinks that you would'nt waste ONE SECOND after returning home, hand-in-hand, before you asked him to lay out all his paperwork, so you could do some 'number-crunching' and see just how much MONEY and 'personal property' you'd acquire, as result of an 'unfortunate passing'.

You're true intentions are so incredibly 'transparent' I laughed so hard I got coffee runnin' out my nose.

Thx for the laugh bud...I really needed it !

[Scuba]

Pissed off said: "Gay people aren't chained in a field working under the sun, they're sipping lattes and bitching about the last Ugly Betty episode."

LMAO, mostly true lol. Here in Wisconsin they amended the state constitution so we can't marry:-( I guess not everywhere in the north is that progressive. At least southerners don't have to deal with our shitty winters.

[Jimmy]

Tom, I completely agree.

[jon]

Blacks get over yourselves, no one HURTS as much as you, NO ONE is discriminated against as much as you, you have no compassion for those that are now walking in your shoes.
Blacks needed whites to win civil rights and gays need blacks to win civil rights.
Call yourselves brothers, but remember, your brothers and sisters are not JUST black

[MRX335]

The next civil war will be over a much bigger issue than Gay marriage.

[James Hipps]

@ pissed off

Even though you can't say in complete terms that gay is the new Black, you can say there are similarities. You should listen to an interview with Congressman John Lewis, one of the major leaders of the Civil Rights Movement who is a straight, Black man. He compares the two very eloquently.

Be pissed off if you want, that is only going to hurt you, but there are many similarities. Discrimination is discrimination.

[James Hipps]

You can find that interview here:
http://www.gayagenda.com/index.php?s=john+lewis

[Bobbie]

Well, Anon, I find it funny that you call us the stupidest country in the world and you can't use the right form of "there". Way to go.

[fulldeck]

No civil war will be fought over the fag marriage/civil union/domestic partnership issue.
But maybe one WILL be started over the economy and taxes - which WAS caused by governments at ALL levels (state AND federal) due to chronic mismanagement and pork greed.
My priorities NOW are how to make my insufficient retirement meet my monthly budget, where I can work at least part time earning say $15/hour, and how long will it take to re-build my IRA nest egg so that I can REALLY retire without recurring financial problems.
Marriage of ANY sorts has its own monetary problems; to hell with gay marriage...it'll only end as do straight marriages, with someone losing a lot of his/her money. Funny, California at one time had MORE divorces than marriages. Maybe they are on to something...

[the_real_sweedie]

Ltdumbear

Wow, are you a self hating gay or just plain ignorant??

Why do we care?? Because we're being treated differently because of something that is out of our hands. I didn't chose to be gay, I just am. I could chose to spend my life with a woman, but I would be lying to her and myself and it would cause me great unhappiness. The declaration of independence reads: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Meaning, everyone deserves to live happily with whoever they want to. If you don't think we need same-sex marriage in order to do that, think again. An example is myself, me and my partner have been together for two and a half years, we met over the internet, I was living in Sweden at the time, but moved over here to pursue the relationship. We're very much in love, he's my best friend and my lover. In order for me to stay here I've been studying at a community college, now I'm about to graduate and my visa is about to expire, and if I can't come up with enough money to pay for my future education, we will be separated. If we could marry, or at least join a union with the exact same rights as a marriage, I would be able to get a green card and we could stay together for as long as we wanted to.

Doesn't it seem wrong to you that we are being separated over other people's feelings about our relationship?? We are great together, and I can't imagen being without him, but as it seems now, that is what's going to happen very soon. Simply because people like you don't care for our relationship.
That's why I'm angry about this country's unequal laws. Other people have other reasons, I can assure you that, but that's why I care so deeply about our rights...

[william hill]

Basic rights/civil equalities are fundamental and NO state should be allowed to choose not to acknowledge those rights. Arguing that it is a state's rights issue is the same argument which permitted states in the 19th century to practice slavery. Gay rights, women's rights, black rights....they are all the same...the universal is the word RIGHTS. They are ours....we deserve them and we should for no less.

[TheLordofWales]

Since no other poster, except Brandon in the middle, seems to be addressing the ISSUE PRESENTED.

What will be the effects of gay marriage as it spreads through the United States?

I'm of the belief that there will be strong state to state resistance especially when gay married couple move to states that do not recgonize their marriages.

Eventually there will be a legal separation between Marriage by the Church under the Eyes of God vs. the Package of legal rights that go along with marriage.

I think it would be much simpler if the state authorized 2 (or more) consenting adults legal rights to children, executorship of estate, health/hospital rights, etc. etc.

I think I know many a STRAIGHT man who'd rather have his best friend Joe be the one to pull the plug instead of the wife.

I foresee the "Rights of Marriage" being abolished and the State coming to a greater separation between their powers and those of the Church.
Marriage, by a church, will hold no legal rights or obligations.
But people can be happy that their union has been consecrated before their friends, families and the eyes of God.
The individuals can attend a Church that has whatever social beliefs it purports; gay, straight, polygamous, monogamous, Rastafarian or drug-free.

[Scranton_009]

"Could gay marriage be the vew civil war?" It already is! Where have YOU been?! And we are winning!

[Rob]

To Bobbie,
I can't believe you would discount every valid point Anon made just because he didn't use the correct "their" instead of "there" -even though this is one of the most common mistakes even scholars make. Wow, I didn't realize you lived in a perfect world where whole arguments are discounted because of a mistake in spelling!

Sadly, your judgmental attitude and ability to entirely ignore a just argument over one misspelled word just proved Anon's entire point.

[The Truth]

Under the US Constitution, rights are held concurrently by the people and by the states.

Licensing the privilege of marriage is a right of the states. States are responsible for licensing privileges.

Allowing the use of medicinal marijuana within its own borders is a state's right, too.

Learn about the 10th Amendment.

Is there a valid point to be made in this story, though? It was a (former) Southern governor who made sure that your marriage in one state need not be recognized in another. I'm referring to former president & Arkansas governor Bill Clinton's signature on the 1996 Defense of Marriage Act. It's former Georgia Sen. Sam Nunn (Democrat) who handed the 1993 Don't Ask Don't Tell law to Democrat president Bill Clinton which he quickly and gleefully signed.

Want to know your biggest obstacle having your Iowa marriage recognized anywhere else? It's Clinton's signature on the Defense of Marriage Act. With that one little unprotested swirl of his pen, Clinton fractured this into 50 separate fights and endless litigation. He set the fight back decades. If this is a civil war (and unless gays are suddenly and systematically in literal chains, literally forced into labor, literally bought and sold like cattle, it's not), then a simple stroke of Bill Clinton's pen is what turned it into that.

[PJ]

To Ltdumbear,

Wow, your name says it all now doesn't it? It's obvious you aren't educated beyond knowing it's not a good idea to make babies with your sister, so I'll make this easy for you to understand goober.

What DisgustedWithStupidIgnorantGaysWorkingAgainstUs
was trying to say is that when two people build a life together, they spend a lot of love, time and money building a life. So is it fair that if two guys have spent their life together, if one dies, the other doesn't automatically get the benefits two straight people get when in the same situation? He wasn't saying he wanted anything special, he wasn't saying he was is in it for the money or things..all he was saying is that gay couples deserve all the rights and benefits straight couples have if one of them dies. If your dad died, and your mom got the house, your dads social security benefits, and anything left behind..are you going to sit your Mom down and say the same shit you said here? Are you going to say "Geez mom, this proves you were just after Dad's money and things..cause that is what you are getting under the law."

Do you see how stupid and dumb you look by judging Gay people to a different standard than straights? Do you see how incredibly ignorant you are by looking at Gays in the same way right wing religious republicans look at us? You automatically assumed a gay man who wanted EQUALITY under the law to be able to inherit his partners benefits just like a straight partner does only wanted that for greedy purposes..instead of looking at him as a human being who deserved the same benefits that straight people get. You obviously think gay people don't deserve all those benefits, that we can't have real monogomous relationships based on love and trust, that we are only good for fucking and having a good time.

This is about EQUALITY, this is about getting the same BENEFITS that straight people get, because we put into the tax system the same amount of dollars straights put in, YET, we get shafted by not having the same benefits they do. Educate yourself before you keep embarassing yourself by making stupid comments in here.

[JL]

I am getting SO sick of this gay marriage shit trumping every other serious issue affecting the gay community in general. For every gay couple who is ready to get married I can name probably 100 single gay men who've yet to meet anyone at all, are trying to survive alone; many of whom have lost jobs, health insurance, have no support system, and are on the verge of giving up. Nobody is rushing in to help them - why should anyone care?

I am seeing this increase over time - gay men in particular only want to be around other gay men who will make them look better or not bring up any negative light to our community. Those who are low income, who don't have jobs that require masters degrees, those who are HIV+, those who are single, etc., make us look damaged or somehow less than 'normal people'. If that's where we are headed, then I'm not supporting any of this. Because what I am seeing is the ultimate gay attitude: I want it for me, I want it now, fuck what you want, and when the time comes where you need something, I won't be around to help you out. That's what this is about - getting what you want for yourself and your partner and getting out, forgetting you ever had anything to do with those who fought for your rights to get married. Many single gay people - who haven't met anyone for a decade in some cases - are wondering why they should even bother trying? What good will legalizing gay marriage be if there is nobody for them to marry? It just rubs salt into wounds and reminds them of the fact that all this work they put into coming out was for nothing...they didn't meet anyone, they tried everything they could to make that happen, it's just a very painful thing for some gay guys to even read about. It's like forcing a mother who lost a child while in labor to sit and watch a bunch of mothers with newborn babies all the time.

[Ari]

JL -- your argument makes no sense. If we wait around for everyone to be in a relationship we'll never get anywhere. At least this lays the groundwork for people when they do eventually meet someone they want to spend their life with. Plus, if your argument was valid then straight people shouldn't want to get married when so many of them are single. Plus -- if you think that there are no poor, HIV+ people with a high school education in a loving relationship then you are really confused. People from all walks of life are in committed loving relationships and want to be able to get the same rights as straight people -- simple rights like being able to visit someone in the hospital or getting their social security benefits if they die. Currently gay people have no legal rights and the only way to ensure any sort of rights is by creating a will or estate plan with a power of attorney. That's what my partner and I have done to protect each other. God forbid we didn't and something happened to one of us -- the other person's family could swoop in and take everything. Fortunately our families love and respect us but there are a lot of people out there who don't have that. And for your argument about gays only surrounding themselves with other gays to make them look better -- have you met your diverse community? Personally I surround myself with people who love and respect me, both gay and straight, rich and poor, well educated and not. So just because someone can't get a date to turn into a second date and eventually a great relationship doesn't mean the rest of us should not want to be able to have the same rights given to any straight couple in this country.

[Amazed at the ignorance]

A reply to the comment posted by "Pissed Off". Your comment regarding the black movement not comparing to the gay movement was at best, ignorant, self-serving and bigoted. Ironically, you are correct by saying they do not compare. The treatment of homosexuals historically is far more atrocious. Have you even done research on how homosexuals were treated during the era of slavery and before the turn of the century? For your information, historically, homosexuals have been tortured, imprisoned and put to death just for being gay. Was it a crime to be black? NO! Was it a crime to be homosexual? YES! Ask yourself the following questions: What rights do blacks have today? What rights do homosexuals have today? I am sure you will find the answers to these two questions to be quite different. I have to say, YOU disgust ME!

[Laun]

If you truly love someone in this day you will stay with them/ by them not for their money or what you could get from them after they die.

Also, after a day like today I understand why there needs to be be a separation of "Church" and state. Some personal issues are no business of the church. In the past churches and denominations all fought over who should rule and rule over all others. Typically this led to wars. In those dark times homosexuals were regarded as evil and lined up to be tortured and executed which was completely against the message of the New Testament. The hypocracy smells to this very day.

Tired of too many judgemental people.

[pissed off is ignorant]

To Pissed Off: You haven't been discriminated against because you're gay, apparently. I had it much worse in a small town growing up as a gay person than any person of any color has in the same generation (whom I have met). And you know why? If you're black or hispanic or a racial minority, at least your family is just like you and has the same struggles. At least you have a community and role models to look up to and some kind of kinship to help you through everything. I didn't have anything or anyone and couldn't have felt more like an alien and horribly flawed that something was very wrong with me. In many ways being gay is much worse for some people because of that isolation.

[Laun]

Whether straight or gay or bi, I think that people really need to work on being real. Relationships in family, friends, partners, etc are very delicate important matters not to be treated like gifts recieved out of a gum ball machine for a quarter. Before anyone decides they want to get hitched in the first place. I'm not worried about the right to get hitched there will always be away somewhere. It will just take more time for homosexuals to gain the rights, freedoms, benefits that others have.

[james]

What is with the SOUTH...you would think that hr equality lessons learned would be ingrained by this time. I guess there is such disharmony and lack of self-respect that they would rather WORRY about things that DO NOT affect them than work on their own PERSONAL issues. Gay mariage will not affect anyone but the gay couple...Get OVER IT!

[Laun]

Pissed of is ignorant, you are definitely correct. Its rediculous that in this modern society that anyone living in this country would be treated less than human and alienated. How is a nation to work together when people can not even give everyone the same value as living beings? Like I stated before in another blog, fuedalism still runs rampant with class levels and overlords running everything. There is too much love for discriminating, condescending and hurting those around who are different. Its a little too late for an 11 year old who took his life the other day. I don't want that to happen to anyone else.

[L. Bass]

"Blacks get over yourselves, no one HURTS as much as you, NO ONE is discriminated against as much as you, you have no compassion for those that are now walking in your shoes."

Dude are you serious!!!? Get over ourselves, yes there are some in the black community who are apathetic to the gay cause, but keep in mind other minorities are as well(I am not trying to justify the behavior). But don't single us out, and don't generalize us. There are many gay blacks just as there are many other gay people who belong to different races. Gay has NO COLOR! Religion is the problem, religious people who are intolerant despite the fact that their doctrine tells them not to judge.

But the truth of the whole matter is, THERE ARE SIMILARITIES between the black struggle and the gay struggle. No the struggles aren't exactly same but the point is that discrimination is wrong regardless of who it done to. And that is the commonality we share.